Talk:Harad

War Icons thumbnail

It looks good to me without the border/caption. No objections here, though I don't mind it with the caption/border either. --Hyarion 13:54, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

Narfil, I added the frame so we could have a description indicating the icon was Howe's work, not Tolkien's. I agree that the image looks better frameless, but I also think we need to describe where the image came from. Anyone else have an opinion? --Ebakunin 13:58, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

Kind of off topic but this reminds me I need to make a {{johnhowe}} template, anything by John Howe we put that template in there and it will say By John Howe http://www.john-howe.com or something a bit fancier. We also need to go back and put where these images can be found (which books, boardgames, etc.) as well as where to purchase them. Another possibility for the war icon is to mention it is by John Howe within the article. --Hyarion 14:29, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

Revisions

Could someone please replace the non-canonical map with a river flowing from the south-east of harad flowing into the bay of Umbar with the canonical General Map of Middle-earth from LOTR that shows Umbar, Near Harad and Far Harad? There is no reference that the Haradrim came into contact with Sauron during the second Age. As far as I recall it is only mentioned that Sauron had troops from the South during the War of the last alliance of elves and men. --Akhorahil 14:56, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

There is a lot of overlap with the article about the Haradrim. Maybe the article should be restricted to the geography and climate and the history should be restricted to the Druedain wandering through, Harad probably being discovered by Aldarion and some people living at or Near the by of Umbar so that the Numenoreans could pick up the name "Umbar" from them. Most of the history should be in the articles about the Haradrim, Umbar, the Black Numenoreans, Gondor or some of the gondorian Kings and stewards. --Akhorahil 08:19, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree with most of your points. Naturally when talking about the history of the area there will be some overlap when talking about its peoples, but we just have to be mindful of what to include and decide if its relevant. I made some quick revisions on the text to make it more about 'Harad' and removed some sentences that I believe is not useful, though it can be added back if some disagree.

It is certain that Sauron came in contact with the Haradrim in the Second Age, I put a reference to that on the article but the line is "And in the south and in the further east Men multiplied; and most of them turned to evil, for Sauron was at work."

I removed two images and kept one for the peoples. Unfortunately we don't have any images of the geography of Harad so this is something to look for in the future. Gaetano 15:06, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I know it seems likely that those Men in the South were Haradrim and I'd like to believe they are too, but it is not definitive because those Men may be a seperate ethnic group in the South altogether. There's no room for speculation so the detail should be removed.--WhiteWizard 18:00, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

The description "A vast hot area, filled with deserts and jungles" after "Description" in the info box is specutlative and does not have a reference. J.R.R. Tolkien never mentioned that Harad included "deserts" or that it included "jungles". That is pure speculation. Elephants or camels can also survive in normal woods, savannas or in landscape with a mediterranean climate. The Statement "Haradrim" after "Inhabitants" in the info box is speculative. We do not know, whether there were other inhabitants or not (e.g. Dúnedain or Black Númenóreans in Umbar or further down the coast). Umbar is part of the geographical Region of Harad (Haradwaith) and the inhabitants of Umbar could also have included other groups of inhabitants. --Akhorahil 17:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

The statement about the Númenóreans teaching agriculture and craftsmanship refers to men in Middle-earth in general and does not mention the Haradrim. We do not know where that was. That they taught the Haradrim in Harad is speculative and should be cleary disclosed as a speculation. The statement that the Númenóreans became more ruthless and enslaved refers to men in Middle-earth in general and does not mention the Haradrim. We do not know where that was. That they were ruthless against the Haradrim and that they enslaved the Haradrim is speculative and should be clearly disclosed as a speculation. --Akhorahil 17:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

The statement that King Elessar Extended his realm south, reconquered Umbar and much of Harad's western coast is a speculation. That is not included in Gondor and the heirs of Anarión in appendix A and not included in The House of Eorl in appendix A, which are provided as references for this statement. The statement that Harad's eastern lands remained Independent is speculative. We do not know what happened in the Fourth Age. --Akhorahil 17:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

The Statement that much of Far Harad was a jungle and that there was also a desert is speculative and does not have a reference. The Statement that the Oliphaunts lived in Far Harad is speculative and does not have a reference. We do not know, whether they lived in Near Harad or Far Harad or in both regions. --Akhorahil 17:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I like you^. I say that you should go forward with this cleanup. There's so much speculation on so many pages as well.--WhiteWizard 18:00, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Infobox image change

Proposal from Akhorahil to change the map to File:Christopher Tolkien - Map of Harad.jpg because the current image is non-canonical. Gaetano 16:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

The map in the info box is a part of the map that was made by Daniel Reeve (www.danielreeve.co.nz Projects -> The Lord of the Rings -> Maps as the "First merchandising map Middle-Earth" for The Lord of the Rings films that were directed by Peter Jackson. It is non-canonical, because it includes a river that flows into the bay of Umbar and another river flowing to the Belegaer further south of Umbar, which is not shown on the General Map of Middle-Earth that was drawn by Christohper Tolien based on a map that was drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien. --Akhorahil 17:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)