Talk:Possible inconsistencies in the legendarium

Well, some of this borders fanwank. Also, I'm pretty sure Tolkien talked about most of it in Letters (the Ring of Thror comes to mind).

On another note: This page needs structure. Maybe a grouping of errors? "Character errors", "Scientific errors", "plot errors", or somesuch? -- Ederchil ^{(Talk/Contribs/Edits)} 20:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

They are too few for now to be categorized. Sage 13:24, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

• Character mistakes:
  • Mouth of Sauron
  • Gimli's Axe
  • Possession of the Nine Rings
  • Knowledge of the Palantír
• "Scientific"
  • Distances
  • Moon phases
• Plot errors
  • Doors of Durin
  • Eagles
  • Shadow over Eregion
  • Beater and Biter

Looks good enough to me. -- Ederchil ^{(Talk/Contribs/Edits)} 11:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

It does looks good but I still think it's too few/too early to think of definite categories. For example the Scientific errors could be under Plot errors, while Thror's Ring under Character. But anyway, that doesn't mean that I object to sectionization, only that it's not that useful yet. Sage 23:43, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to add a few more errors in the next week or two. Some can be explained as pure character errors, such as Pippin's comment to Théoden that Rohan is the first country he's come to where people have heard any tale about hobbits, when Fangorn is the only inhabited country they've visited where people haven't heard of hobbits.

Others are of the type, "If they could do A, why didn't they do B?" The best one may be—when Galadriel says she knows Sauron's mind concerning the elves, why doesn't she offer Frodo and Sam any information? Why don't they ask for any? Why didn't she know about Saruman's betrayal, which I would think concerns the elves, or if she knew, why didn't she warn Gandalf? (He says at the Council of Elrond that he'd gotten messages from Lórien after reading the scroll of Isildur.) This could be a separate type from the other plot errors, or a subtype of them. Spearwielder 03:31, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

It definitely needs some order now. (Interesting, I never thought of most of these). -- Ederchil ^{(Talk/Contribs/Edits)} 07:56, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Since I've been enjoying articles here, I'm glad you found my suggestions interesting. I hope to add two or three more soon. By the way, I think the Vale of Anduin, described as green, should actually be desert, as it's in the rain shadow of the Misty and White Mountains. But it would be nice to find an expert source on that. Spearwielder 04:57, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The palantíri

I think the explanation given is rather far-fetched. What Gandalf says is, "No word of it did he [Saruman] speak to any of the Council [not "at any Council meeting"]. It was not known to us that any of the palantíri had escaped the ruin of Gondor." So he's talking about the members of the Council, including him, not what happened at Council meetings.

Also, he says in "The Pyre of Denethor", "Though the Stewards deemed that it was a secret kept only by themselves, long have I known that here in the White Tower, as at Orthanc, one of the Seven Stones was preserved." This implies, but doesn't quite prove, that more than one Steward was mistaken about the secrecy—otherwise it would be much more natural to say, "Though Denethor deemed..."

Gandalf also says in "The Palantír", "Who knows where all those other Stones now lie, broken, or buried, or drowned deep?" If he knows, that might not be a lie exactly, but it's serious suppressio veri and suggestio falsi.

It seems to me that the most likely explanation is that Tolkien made a mistake. If not, the most likely is that Gandalf is lying to Pippin to protect the secret, which is more Denethor's than his. Another possibility is that he's suffering a brief recurrence of the post-resurrection memory problem that he had when he met Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli. Spearwielder 03:52, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

He does speak about the members of the Council including himself, but also refers to the past. His phrase doesn't exclude that sometime later he gained some personal knowledge. What if he talked about the Ring? They eventually all found out that Bilbo had the Ring but referring to the past Gandalf would say something like "It was now known to us that Bilbo had the Ring". It's not bad grammar at all and doesn't contradict the facts.

Second, as for the fate of the Palantiri, it is not a lie, since he speaks about "all" of them. Yes he (perhaps) knows that 4 of them were in Emyn Beraid, Orthanc, Barad-dur and Denethor's tower, but what about "all" of them? Nobody knows.

Finally, yes, Tolkien perhaps made some mistakes, but this is not the explanation of the inconsistency, but the reason of the inconsistency. Explanations are to find out how mistakes can make an inconsistency and whether they can be explained internally. Sage 09:24, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I won't argue with you any more. However, I'll point out that the article now reads, "as the Nazgûl are Sauron's slaves, his owning the Rings may be equivalent to the Nazgûl keeping them." Here "his owning" (possessive) isn't parallel to "the Nazgûl keeping" (not possessive). It should be either "him owning" or "the Nazgûl's keeping". As you're the veteran here, I'll let you pick. Spearwielder 03:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Corrected error?

In my 1971 Ballantine edition, there are almost identical entries in Appendix B for 1455 and 1462, both saying that Sam was re-elected mayor and that at his request, the Thain made Fastred and Elanor Wardens of the Westmarch, where their descendants dwelled for many generations. It has Sam elected for the fifth time in 1455 and the sixth in 1462, which seems right, but I doubt Pippin gave Fastred and Elanor this title twice. Was this corrected in later editions? Spearwielder 00:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

It's apparently a very complicated matter, as noted in RC721-2.

In the first edition, the "Warden-making" takes place in 1462. When Tolkien wanted to change something (deleting a line that was between brackets), the second (Ballantne) edition accidentally merged 1455 and 1462, ignoring the sixth term statement. A&U's second edition also ran with this error. In the fourth or fifth printing, Ballantine tried to correct things, which led to the duplication you have. In 1987, Houghton Mifflin "corrected" it once again, by changing the entry for 1462 into the short "sixth term" statement (which both my pre-2004 editions have). Hammond and Scull changed it back to Tolkien's original intent in the 2004 50th Anniversary edition. -- Ederchil ^{(Talk/Contribs/Edits)} 08:03, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, very interesting. If people would find the contradictory statements only in pre-1987 editions, I guess there's little point in mentioning it in an article. Spearwielder 22:28, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

It can go under Corrected Mistakes. The Reader's Companion lists many of these printing errors. Maybe there can be a subcsection for them? -- Ederchil ^{(Talk/Contribs/Edits)} 22:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Explanation of Gandalf's warning on deep arts

The current explanation mentions the difficulty of defining "magic", but that doesn't seem to me to be the issue. Gandalf's warning is about "the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves". I feel sure that Orcrist, Sting, the Barrow-blades, the Phial of Galadriel, and Galadriel's box of earth were produced by arts deeper than Thorin and the hobbits possess—whether they are magical or not. The only question I see is whether they qualify as "devices".

Also, I may not be understanding the comment on Pippin's curiosity correctly, but it seems to me to be based on the assumption that Pippin hasn't looked into the Palantir yet. But he has, and by now Pippin is far from the palantír. If Gandalf is warning Pippin, it's against getting carried away by his curiosity again (and Pippin manages to avoid it). Spearwielder 00:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)