Talk:Tar-Atanamir

Death

Since the date of Atanamir's death was never changed in the Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings, I think it would be more appropriate to retain that on the TG. Any objection? -- Ar-Zigûr (talk) 09:37, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Wayne Hammond & Christina Scull changed the entry for the year 2251 of the Second Age in Appendix B of the 50th anniversary edition of LOTR in 2004 on page 1083 from "Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. [...]" to "Death of Tar-Atanamir. Tar-Ancalimon takes the sceptre. [...]" and explained their reasons for this change on page 714 of their book The Lord of the Rings A Reader's Companion. Christopher Tolkien discusses this in note 10 of the chapter The Line of Elros in Unfinished Tales and discusses different time "schemes" for the Akallabeth in The Peoples of Middle-earth in chapter VI The Tale of Years of the Second Age and in chapter V. The History of the Akallabeth. In UT Christopher Tolkien mentions that his date of death was 2251 and that it was later emended to (i.e. changed to) 2221 and it seems that he was referring to different versions of The Line of Elros, but there were also time schemes for the Tale of Years of the Second Age. Before Tar-Atanamir the kings and queens of Númenor surrendered their life voluntarily and all except Elros died voluntarily when they were between 398 to 412 years old. If Tar-Atanamir (who did not die voluntarily) died in SA 2221 he died only ten years later than the previous kings and queens (except Elros) who died voluntarily. If Tar-Atanamir died in 2251 he died forty years later than the previous kings and queens (except Elros) who died voluntarily. If you have an e-book of The Peoples of Middle-earth, I recommend that you search for the name Tar-Atanamir to find all passages that mention him. An isolated page is mentioned after the text of AB §25, which mentions that Tar-Atanamir, the 7th King of Númenor died in c. 2061 and that "He clung to life for an etra 50 years." This is not mentioned in the entry about Tar-Atanamir in The Line of Elros and is not mentioned in the Akallabeth in The Silmarillion. In the second text of manuscript T4 for the Tale of Years of the Second Age there is an entry for 2060-2251 Reign of Tar-Atanamir the Great that does not mention the first appearance of the Nazgûl and they also do not appear in other entries in this second text. In the entry XII Tar-Ciryatan in The Line of Elros in UT Tar-Ciryatan surrendered the sceptre in 2029 and died in 2035 and in the entry XIII Tar-Atanamir that Tar-Atanamir ruled until 2221, the year of his death. So the time of the rule of Tar-Atanamir in The Line of Elros is from 2029-2221 and thus different from the previous version, which had 2060-2251. The date of death of Tar-Atanmir in 2251 is also mentioned in a typscript from c. 1965 (after the publication of The Lord of the Rings) in chapter XI Lives of the Númenoreans in The Nature of Middle-earth. I am in favour of not changing the date of death on the page. --Akhôrahil (talk) 10:42, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

If so, then what about the date of the first appearance of the Nazgûl? Must it also be changed to S.A. 2221 on the TG? -- Ar-Zigûr (talk) 13:35, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

No, the date of the first appearance of the Nazgûl does not need to be changed from 2251 to 2221, because Christopher Tolien only mentions in note 10 of The Line of Elros in UT that the date of death of Tar-Atanamir of 2221 is an emendation of 2251 (i.e. was emended (changed) from 2251 to 2221), probably based on what Christopher Tolkien could see from changes on manuscripts for The Line of Elros. Christopher Tolkien did not mention anything that the date of the appearance of the Nazgûl was changed from 2251 to 2221. The entry for the years 2000-3000 of the Second Age in the chapter VI The Tale of Years of the Second Age of The Peoples of Middle-earth mentions that the Ringswraiths first appear. There seems to be no other more precise date in the manuscripts before the year that was put in Appendix B for the first appearance of the Nazgûl. --Akhôrahil (talk) 15:53, 17 July 2023 (UTC)