Talk:Tar-Míriel

Rule

Her rule is currently listed as "None: Queenship usurped", while it is true that she was never a Ruling Queen of Númenor she was still a Queen of Númenor, being the wife of Ar-Pharazôn. For other queens we still list their rule (see for example: Tar-Vanimeldë). ~ Éowyn ☆ talk ~ 22:50, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

It was correct to list the years of the rule of Tar-Vanimeldë, because she was not just a queen, but a Ruling Queen and so was listed with a roman number in the list of Kings and Ruling Queens of Númenor in the chapter The Line of Elros:Kings of Númenor in UT. In note 15 of that chapter it is said that Míriel should have been the fourth Ruling Queen and in appendix A I (i) of LOTR it is said that she should have been "the fourth Queen". But she never officially ruled like Tar-Vanimeldë with her husband doing the day to day work, but Míriel's husband Pharazôn seized the sceptre into his own hand. Note that Pharazôn is listed in this list as Ar-Pharazôn (i.e. "King"-Pharazôn) with the roman number XXV (i.e. the twenty-fifth ruler) and that Tar-Míriel does not have a roman number in this list and is not mentioned there as a "Ruling Queen" although the other Ruling Queens are explicitly called "Ruling Queen" in this list. In short due to her power hungry husband who "usurped the sceptre" according to appendix A I (i) of LOTR, more speaks against listing the years of her rule (because she did not seem to rule on paper in the list of Kings) than listing them. --Akhôrahil (talk) 10:15, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Whoops. Correct example: Almarian. She isn't a ruling queen but does have her rule listed. If we're going to have her rule listed it would also make sense to have Tar-Miriel's rule listed though I do see the reasoning for not including it. ~ Éowyn ☆ talk ~ 15:02, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

The situation concerning Almarian, the queen of Tar-Meneldur is different. She was not a Ruling Queen, in fact she married the King before the King's son changed the law of succession so that women could become a Ruling Queen and officially rule as a queen. In addition, it is not mentioned that her husband made her his regent or that she de facto took a lot of the decisions of day-to-day rule. So in my opinion, no years of rule should be mentioned in the infobox on the Almarian page. If a rule for non-ruling queens should be mentioned, then non-ruling queen consorts, such as Hallacar, the husband of Tar-Ancalimë would need to have years of his "rule" mentioned. You could go through all the genealogical trees of the kings and queens of Númenor and any mention of husbands or wives in the sources and check whether the years of rule are mentioned for any other non-ruling husbands or wives on their pages on Tolkien Gateway and no years should be mentioned in the rule line in infoboxes for them. --Akhôrahil (talk) 09:19, 11 March 2024 (UTC)