Talk:Umbar: Difference between revisions

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Latest comment: 11 April 2020 by Yeyeye in topic Politics and rule
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==Politics and rule==
==Politics and rule==
The speculative part of the sentence "Umbar allowed their race to swiftly dwindle and merge with the Pré-Númenoreans" should be removed. In the footnote to the entry on king Eärnil I in appendix A I (iv) Tolkien does not speficically talk about the Black Númenoreans who lived in Umbar, he talks about the Black Númenoreans in General as "their race" and Tolkien does not use "and", he uses "or". Tolkien said "their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth". Tolkien also uses the verb dwindle or wane in connection with the Dúnedain of Arnor and Gondor when he means that their lifespan diminished and that their skills and knowledge diminished. In the chapter The Istari in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth Tolkien mentions that the settlements of the Men of Númenor "beyond Umbar had been absorbed, or being made by men already in Númenor corrupted by Sauron had become hostile and part of Sauron's dominions". Since Tolkien explicitly talks about the settlements "beyond" Umbar in the south this could mean that the Black Númenoreans in Umbar were not absorbed by whatever the other local nearby population was. In addition Tolkien says in The Lord of the Rings that the Mouth of Sauron and says in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth that queen Berúthiel were Black Númenoreans and more authors agree that it is more likely that the Mouth of Sauron was born in the Third Age. I refer to Ellie Keener's excellent article that I mentioned earlier.
The speculative part of the sentence "Umbar allowed their race to swiftly dwindle and merge with the Pré-Númenoreans" should be removed. In the footnote to the entry on king Eärnil I in appendix A I (iv) Tolkien does not speficically talk about the Black Númenoreans who lived in Umbar, he talks about the Black Númenoreans in General as "their race" and Tolkien does not use "and", he uses "or". Tolkien said "their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth". Tolkien also uses the verb dwindle or wane in connection with the Dúnedain of Arnor and Gondor when he means that their lifespan diminished and that their skills and knowledge diminished. In the chapter The Istari in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth Tolkien mentions that the settlements of the Men of Númenor "beyond Umbar had been absorbed, or being made by men already in Númenor corrupted by Sauron had become hostile and part of Sauron's dominions". Since Tolkien explicitly talks about the settlements "beyond" Umbar in the south this could mean that the Black Númenoreans in Umbar were not absorbed by whatever the other local nearby population was. In addition Tolkien says in The Lord of the Rings that the Mouth of Sauron and says in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth that queen Berúthiel were Black Númenoreans and more authors agree that it is more likely that the Mouth of Sauron was born in the Third Age. I refer to Ellie Keener's excellent article that I mentioned earlier.
Also, there is no mention of Umbar being ruled as a duumvirate. It's also speculative to say that Herumor and Fuinur ruled as a duumvirate in Umbar, although they were associated with the Haradrim--[[User:Yeyeye|Yeyeye]] 15:19, 11 April 2020 (UTC)


==Language==
==Language==

Revision as of 15:19, 11 April 2020

Geography

The description of Umbar does not have a reference. The description of Umbar should have The General Map of Middle-earth as a reference for the description and for its Location. http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/6/67/Christopher_Tolkien_-_General_Map_of_Middle-earth.png The speculation about the geographic borders of Umbar should be removed. The speculation about the geographic borders of Umbar does not have a reference in Tolkien's writings. The Webpage by lalaith does no longer exist and when one reads lalaith's page using the internet Archive one sees that lalaith does not back up his speculations with references to Tolkien's writings.

Foundation and Númenórean Rule

New Haven should be replaced with Vinyalonde with Lond Daer in brackets. Tolkien only uses New Haven once as the translation of the Name into English. The haven was initially namen Vinyalonde and later Lond Daer and Tolkien used those names much more often in his works than New Haven. Many readers will not even know which haven is meant with New Haven, because Tolkien used it only once.

The speculation that Berúthiel was "perhaps from Ubar" should be removed. In an interview in 1966 with New World magazine Tolkien says that Berúthiel "went back to live in the inland city, and went to the bad (or returned to it - she was a black Númenorean in origin, I guess)". The city of Umbar is at the sea at the east of the bay of Umbar and is thus not an "inland city". In this interview Tolkien also mentions the giantess Skadi from scandinavian mythology as his inspiration that married the god of the sea and did not like the seaside life and that she went back to live in Jotunheim (which is not at the sea). I refer to Ellie Keener's excellent article Who is a Númenorean https://terpconnect.umd.edu/~jkeener/tolkien/numenorean.html

Corsairs of Umbar

The speculation that king Telumehtar "destroyed the fortress and haven of the Corsairs" should be removed. This part of the sentence does not have a source in The Lord of the Rings. Also the part of the sentence "but left Umbar unsettled and ruined, aparently with a protective garrison" should be removed. This part of the sentence also does not have a source in The Lord of the Rings. The entry on king Telumehtar in appendix A I (iv) of The Lord of the Rings only mentions that Telumehtar "took Umbar by storm" and that "Umbar was again held for a while by the kings". The entry for the year 1810 in Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings only mentions that king Telumehtar "retakes Umbar and drives out the Corsairs". It is unrealistic from a military Point of view to leave a city ruined that one intends to hold after its capture. The part of the sentence seems to be a speculation that is based on the entry on king Telumehtar in The Peoples of Middle-earth Part One chapter VII The Heirs of Elendil The Southern Line: the Anarioni which mentions the "destruction of the haven and stronghold of the Corsairs of Umbar (1810)" and that Umbar "was later reoccupied and rebuilt in the troublous times that later befell Gondor". One should Keep in mind that this was an earlier version of the appendix that Tolkien changed later and that was not published like this in the final version of the appendix in The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien probably changed this because it was not realistic.

The speculation that "Umbar still fell when enemies invaded Gondor from the east and south in T.A. 1944, preventing Gondor to use it to support its forces from the sea" should be removed. This speculation does not have a source in The Lord of the Rings. The Information in the chapter Cirion and Eorl in Unfinished Tales of Numenor, which was written by Tolkien after the second edition of The Lord of the Rings and which provides more information on the wainrider wars than the appendices to The Lord of the Rings and that does not conflict with the shorter Information in the appendices of The Lord of the Rings indicates that Umbar was lost at a later date. I have explained this in my comments in the entry "The second Gondorian Umbar" in the Forum of the Tolkien Gateway.

Haradrim rule

The title of the section should be changed. It is speculative that the Haradrim conquered Umbar and ruled Umbar (whatever is meant with rule). The entry on king Telumehtar in appendix A I (iv) of The Lord of the Rings only mentions that "But in the new evils that soon befell Gondor Umbar was again lost, and fell into the Hands of the Men of the Harad". Harad is simply the Sindarin word for South. We do not know who These Men of the South were. Tolkien does not say anything about their ethnic composition. We only know that king Telumehtar earlier drove out the Corsairs when he took Umbar. From the entry on King Telumehtar in appendix A of the Lord of The Rings we know that in that war the last descendants of Castamir perished. It seems that other Corsairs survived since there were driven out from Umbar and we know that there were gondorians who went with the sons of Castamir to Umbar or that went later to Umbar before the capture of Umbar by Telumehtar. Some Corsairs may even have been Black Númenoreans.

The speculative sentence "Umbar had been reclaimed by the Haradrim, rebuilt and occupied and for the rest of the Third Age" should be removed. The speculative sentence "It became a home for a new generation of 'Corsairs of Umbar', who must have been closely related to the Haradrim, if not even merely Southrons themselves" should be removed. These speculative sentences do not have a source in The Lord of the Rings. These sentences have no refrence on which source they are based. Maybe they are based on Chris Seeman's opinion in his article Rethinking Umbar in the february 2003 issue of The Guild Companion or on lalaith's The Third Realm in Exile. Again the information in the chapter The Heirs of Elendil of the Peoples of Middle-earth is just earlier versions of appendix A that were later changed and were not published in The Lord of the Rings. It should at least be explicitly said that those are just speculation and that Tolkien does not say anything about the ethnic composition of the Corsairs of Umbar in The Lord of the Rings.

Politics and rule

The speculative part of the sentence "Umbar allowed their race to swiftly dwindle and merge with the Pré-Númenoreans" should be removed. In the footnote to the entry on king Eärnil I in appendix A I (iv) Tolkien does not speficically talk about the Black Númenoreans who lived in Umbar, he talks about the Black Númenoreans in General as "their race" and Tolkien does not use "and", he uses "or". Tolkien said "their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth". Tolkien also uses the verb dwindle or wane in connection with the Dúnedain of Arnor and Gondor when he means that their lifespan diminished and that their skills and knowledge diminished. In the chapter The Istari in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth Tolkien mentions that the settlements of the Men of Númenor "beyond Umbar had been absorbed, or being made by men already in Númenor corrupted by Sauron had become hostile and part of Sauron's dominions". Since Tolkien explicitly talks about the settlements "beyond" Umbar in the south this could mean that the Black Númenoreans in Umbar were not absorbed by whatever the other local nearby population was. In addition Tolkien says in The Lord of the Rings that the Mouth of Sauron and says in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth that queen Berúthiel were Black Númenoreans and more authors agree that it is more likely that the Mouth of Sauron was born in the Third Age. I refer to Ellie Keener's excellent article that I mentioned earlier.

Also, there is no mention of Umbar being ruled as a duumvirate. It's also speculative to say that Herumor and Fuinur ruled as a duumvirate in Umbar, although they were associated with the Haradrim--Yeyeye 15:19, 11 April 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Language

This speculative sentence should be removed. This sentence has no basis in the writings of Tolkien. The Webpage by lalaith does no longer exist and when one reads lalaith's page using the internet Archive one sees that lalaith does not back up his speculations with references to Tolkien's writings. Tolkien explicitly says in appendix F to The Lord of the Rings that in the course of the Third Age Westron had become the native language of nearly all of the speaking peoples (save the Elves) who dwelt "along all the coasts from Umbar northward" and that "At the time of the War of the Ring at the end of the age these were still its bounds as a native tongue". Westron is based on Adunaic the original native language of both the Faithul and the King's Men Númenoreans. In Addition Umbar was conquered by Gondor and held for hundreds of years by the Gondorians. In Addition to Tolkien saying it, it is also likely that the native language in Umbar at least after the conquest of Umbar by the Gondorians was Westron.

 Akhorahil 16:45, 9 April 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Article needs breaking into sections. Need more narrative and fewer quotes, if possible. --Theoden1 13:55, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Fate

I can't find a source for tihs, but I remember Tolkien explicitly stating that "Umbar" was a native word, and not connected to Q. "fate". -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 07:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Lalaith's website gone

With Lalaith's website being gone, this link works no more. --Adûnâi 02:56, 23 December 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]