Tolkien Gateway

Talk:Years of the Lamps

Revision as of 19:38, 24 February 2021 by Tik (Talk | contribs)

Is the use of "Ringil" correct here? The link from Ringil shows this as the name of Fingolfin's sword (which is correct), but there is no reference to the use of this term as the name for a tower of a Lamp. Which entry requires revision - the Years of the Lamps entry to correct "Ringil" or the revision of the "Ringil" entry to add this second (and earlier) use of the name? Plant doc 08:57, 8 September 2007 (EDT)

The Encyclopedia of Arda mentions in its article on the Inland Sea of Helcar in a footnote "Interestingly, though it isn't mentioned in The Silmarillion, there seems to have been a corresponding southern sea, the Sea of Ringil, which was perhaps associated with the roots of Illuin's mate Ormal." A source for this information isn't given, though. ~ Earendilyon 17:45, 8 September 2007 (EDT)

Canonicity of term

Can anyone give a reference to a primary source using the actual term 'Years of the Lamps'? I can't find it being used in HoMe, so I'm suspecting it is non-canon, maybe invented by David Day.

This is not to say that the concept is non-canon, certainly not. Just that this does not seem to be the term that Tolkien uses for it. His term seems to be "Days before days" [AAm:10]. -- Mithrennaith 21:11, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

I heard about this issue, and like others I could not find any reference to 'Years of the Lamps' in Tolkien's works. "Days before days" indeed is the canonical term, and since nobody here has disagreed with this point since 2008, it seems proper to change the term in this article and elsewhere. Fellun 13:16, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
I too saw a certain comment on Reddit (that didn't canvas or anything like that) and came here to see the issue. I do support the move though, it's a canonicity vs familiarity issue, but I think canonicity wins in this case. Unfortunately only autoconfirmed users can move pages, and alas, I've done all my editing anonymously up until this point. Brightgalrs 17:26, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
Here, I'll do this properly. And make a new section. Brightgalrs 17:36, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move

As "Years of the Lamps" seems to be a fan created term, I propose that the article be moved to Days before days. The first sentence of the article should also be changed to (something like):

The Days before days (also known as the Years of the Lamps) began shortly after the creation of Arda by the Valar.

Oh and a redirect should be left after the move, so Years of the Lamps redirects to Days before days. Brightgalrs 17:36, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

If the term isn't actually in Tolkien works, I think the article shouldn't me moved but merged with Spring of Arda (basically, delete the fanon term). --LorenzoCB 17:39, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
Which term are you talking about? "Days before days" appears in the Annals of Aman, even with a capital 'D':
It is computed by the lore-masters that the Valar came to the realm of Arda, which is the Earth, five thousand Valian Years ere the first rising of the Moon [...]. Of these, three thousand and five hundred [...] passed ere the measurement of time first known to the Eldar began with the flowering of the Trees. Those were the Days before days. Thereafter one thousand and four hundred and five and ninety Valian Years [...] followed during which the Light of the Trees shone in Valinor. Those were the Days of Bliss. In those days [...] the Elves awoke in Kuiviénen and the First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar began.
I've bolded the term. This is paragraph 10. Brightgalrs 17:55, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
I strongly support the move to Days before days. That is the term used in Annals of Aman; the Lamps were lit only 1900 Valian years after the Valar arrived in Arda, and the count of Valian years continues in Annals of Aman to the year 3500 and the beginning of the Years of the Trees. I suppose it was David Day who coined the extremely non-canon term "Years of the Lamps". There is no reason to retain it. In any case the first 1900 Valian years were by no means "Years of Lamps", and the actual "years of Lamps", the last 1600 years of the Days before days are nowhere counted as "years of the Lamps" 1-1600. --Tik 18:36, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
I meant "Years of the Lamps" was fanon, or at least that's what you say. The content of this article is the same as Spring of Arda, which is a more known term and covers the same period of time. We can include "Days before days" there. --LorenzoCB 18:58, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
What about the years before the Spring of Arda, which is just a part of the 3500 V.y. period from the arrival to the Trees? Tulkas arrived to Arda 1500 Valian years after the beginning and the Spring of Arda only begun after Melkor was banished with his help. --Tik 19:38, 24 February 2021 (UTC)