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I hope you enjoy editing here and we look forward to your future edits. By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the Council forums or ask me on my talk page. Keep up the great work!
Thanks for your recent contributions, LorenzoCB! When you write at talk pages, please make sure to sign your posts with --~~~~, which will automatically show a link to your user name and date/time when writing the post.
--Morgan 22:15, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Middle-earτh Shadow of War
Hello. Can you upload at least one image related to the videogame Middle-earth Shadow of War?I don't have the ability to upload images on Tolkien Gateway but you do have this ability.
- Hi! I recommend you to make your own account, then you can write all the article about Middle-earth: Shadow of War, as it is almost empty and you seem to be very interested on it. When you get 50 editions you'll be able to upload images. Now please, stop spamming about that. I won't do it, I personally don't like those games.--LorenzoCB 14:40, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Hello. I would like to upload an image on page Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor but I can't upload images on Tolkien Gateway. Can you upload this image that I have uploaded on the specific page.
- There you have it :) You need 50 edits to upload images, btw. Hope you can get them improving the game articles. --LorenzoCB 22:11, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Hi LorenzoCB, great job on your rewriting of the Dagor Dagorath article! Also, thank you for the kind corrections of my woeful ignorance of early names for characters in the Legendarium. Oops. :) --Holdwine Meriadoc (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 18:26, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
- It was just a detail. Thank you for correcting my English, I couldn't imagine I made so many grammatical mistakes! --LorenzoCB 23:03, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
Can you help me fix what I have done on page Isildur because I don't know what to do.
- I didn't see many problems. I fixed the style. Btw, I added the cover of Shadows of War. Last time I confused the games and uploaded the one for Shadows of Mordor :P Remember to sign when you write in a talkpage. --LorenzoCB 17:09, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Hi there. I don't know if you've noticed but there has been a convention (which isn't fully realised but increasingly I have slowly implemented) that for image categories the order has been 1) Artist 2) Where it's from 3) what/who it is depicting and these should be listed in alphabetical order (see File:Alan Lee - The Elvenking's Gate.jpg as an example). If you could keep this in mind when changing or adding categories that would be appreciated. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 07:36, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
- Hi! Thanks for explaining that. I was trying to include the categories in alphabetical order, as I didn't relize there was a formal style for that. I'll do as you say. --LorenzoCB 11:53, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
- Sure, although this one and this one weren't in alphabetical order. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 12:03, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi. Just a note to remind you that, as per the usage information on Template:Webcite, the "accessed" field is not optional; you should use this to show the date you accessed the page. Thanks! --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 12:08, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- As the date showed up authomatically I wasn't including it the last times, but now I see that it was just some kind of preview. Thanks for pointing it out. --LorenzoCB 12:19, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi Lorenzo, I appreciate much your work on expanding the pages on HoMe.
Sometimes I have been thinking if we should dedicate some virtual "space" of this wiki for the Lost Tales continuity, I mean we already have LT-related articles like Gruir, Gilfanon, Noldoli, Inglor and so on. However for topics that are covered in published canon, we use the "Other version of the Legendarium" section, see for example Tol_Eressea#Other_versions_of_the_Legendarium or Mandos#Other_versions_of_the_Legendarium. But I believe there is much more that deserves to be told about the LT topics. So I had the thought about creating alternate pages dedicated to the "alternate" versions of those topics, something like Tol Eressea (Lost Tales). Perhaps we should also include them in categories like "Lost Tales characters" or "Lost Tales locations" and even have some template on the top of each article that notifies we are talking about the "Lost Tales continuity", instead of the generic one about Tolkien's early, unfinished and best thoughts. So we can have a fully functional sub-wiki within the wiki covering the LT topics in a clean way. Similar to how Wookieepedia handles the Canon and the Legends articles.
These are my first thoughts, and I'd like to know your thoughts, before opening a forum topic. Sage 23:44, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Sage! Actually, I hate templates on the top of articles (because of how they look), but yours seems a good idea. It could help to clean the sections of OVOTL, that sometimes are a messy hotchpotch. However, I would wait until we have completed at least all the chapter summaries. The LT are a difficult topic, as there is not really a continuity (for example, I personally think that Christopher should have published the Part Two first), so I think it would be better to have a good base before clasifying things. And yes, I have planned to make those summaries at some point, don't know when.
- Happy new year. --LorenzoCB 00:28, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
Hello again. Please have a look at the article Chasm of Ilmen and tell me if we can identify which is the particular earlier (1931) and later (1951) Silmarillion CT says about. Obviously he refers to the Quenta Noldorinwa and the Later Quenta? Or perhaps one of them is the Quenta of the Lost Road? I am not very comfortable with the versions and the dates. Sage 17:43, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hello. It took me a while to find the page, you should try to include them more often (if you have the book on hand, of course). Yes, "the 'Silmarillion' that followed Q" (1937) is the Quenta Silmarillion (Lost Road) (he cites LR p.242), while the text used in the 77's Silmarillion is Annals of Aman §177 (1951). --LorenzoCB 19:06, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for fixing my error on Christopher’s death date, LorenzoCB! I originally did have it as 16 January, but then I saw it as 15 January and thought it was an incorrect time conversion on my part. Whoops! — Holdwine Meriadoc (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 23:15, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Don't worry. That error has been giving problems in Wikipedia, as many newspapers were giving it mistakenly, and seems like the own Tolkien Family asked to some Tolkien Societies to clarify it.--LorenzoCB 10:36, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
The foaloke is a type of dragon distinct from the Uruloke, it shouldn't be discussed in the same article. I think all relevant information should be contained in its distinct article. Sage 17:26, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
- Foa was changed to mean "breath", but it doesn't specify if it is because a foaloke "breathes fire" (being then an uruloke), which is the most obvious deduction, as a dragon that just breathes has nothing in particular. However, I agree with having a separated article, but you should make it starting from foa as "breath", not "hoard". In OVOTL could be included the description of Glorund as a foaloke. --LorenzoCB 19:04, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
Firstly, I am not explaining Sauron's origins, but why he fell. Introductions should never be blunt. The sections expand the content of briefly presented in the introduction.
Secondly, the quote I put is from The Silmarillion - Valaquenta: Of the Enemies. Take a look if you will, I believe it is the last sentence in the paragraph concerning Sauron. --LordoftheEarth 12:51, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
- Ah, as you removed all my edit, I didn't see you later put the quote that there was in the first place. If you want to help the wiki, there are many things that need to be improved: Tolkien Gateway:To-do. But the Sauron article is one of the few that are pretty fine, that's why I'm concerned with it.--LorenzoCB 12:59, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Sorry if I myself am not that receptive or even annoying at times ... I'm having a bad time ... broke up with a girl and all that ... Let's leave the Sauron article as it is for now. I added on the talk page that I changed the image so if someone thinks it doesn't work then we'll change it. I'll try to help out on other articles as well, of course. I appreciate your dedication to the wiki! A nice time till next time! --LordoftheEarth 13:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry for being harsh when I point out the mistakes in your Talkpage. I get nervous when people make many edits for just one article, but I should have been more polite. --LorenzoCB 16:11, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
I would like to point out that I disagree with the choices of the new pics. However I would like to say that some of the recent edits were legit and shouldn't be reverted. When a user makes a lot of edits and another user doesn't agree with stylistic mistakes, they shouldn't revert all the edits, but rather fix the particular points. Sage 17:10, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
I edited out Sauron and Ungoliant of the Servants of Melkor category, the reasons why are faily logical. Leaving these aside, does it say anyway if Melkor's messenger, Langon, in the Book of Lost Tales is an Ainu? I saw he is mentioned as such in the Allies and Servants of Morgoth section and I don't remember J.R.R. saying anything on Langon's nature. This is all I found on this emissary: "Melko heard him and was in doubt, he would not come, but sent Langon his servant..."--LordoftheEarth 12:34, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
- I disagree with removing that category from Sauron. He was his servant for a whole age. He can also have the category of 'Evil' because he later became independent, but he was a true servant, it doesn't matter if he forsook Morgoth; unlike Ungoliant, who was never under Morgoth's command. I fixed the info of Langon, thanks for pointing that out. But there are better things than caring for the categories.--LorenzoCB 13:49, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
Can you give me an example about that Gnomes category? For example, we should add this to the articles about Feanor and Beren ? Sage 18:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- I mean for those characters that didn't have a development beyond the "Gnome" phase, like Gilfanon, Littleheart... If in the future we make articles for Beren the Gnome and others, that category would be applied. But now those examples are categorized as "Noldor", anachronically. (You can answer me in your talkpage, btw). --LorenzoCB 19:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Please have a look at Talk:Oropher. There is a passage that has been overlooked. I think the page about Oropher itself, as well as topics about the Elves of Lindon, the Sindar etc have some mistakes concerning their migrations. Sage 10:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
- Answered, I hope I helped. Do you take care of the matter? --LorenzoCB 13:39, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Hey why did you remove the information and link from the article without an explanation?
And why do you plan leaving here? That was lathspel. Sage 18:42, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
- Eduardo did work as a consultant for the movies, but he told me he had no impact, so it was not pertinent to include that info. He also asked me to remove that link, as he lost his web domain. Sorry, I should have indicated that, but as I am the only one involved with that article I didn't bother.
- I'm leaving because the wiki requires time, and I want to focus more on other projects and on my spiritual life. Also, I feel many things are gonna change soon and I don't think I'll be able to edit. But I'm still around here, I want to finish some things before. --LorenzoCB 19:00, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Image of Tevildo
I was just wondering, where did you get that image (I know it's from "Beren and Lúthien", but where, specifically, did you find it on the internet)?
Also, where did you find the title of the image? --IvarTheBoneless
- I found it on the internet, yes, Pinterest or something. I just searched one with a good quality and then I removed the frame following the policy of the wiki. Usually the images of Alan Lee have the title of the chapter from where they come, but there is no rule about that, so I put a more pertinent title. Are you sure we need a gallery for Beren and Lúthien? That imples uploading all its images... --LorenzoCB 12:17, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
- Well, I'm planning to upload the entirety of Alan Lee's artwork from both "Beren and Lúthien" as well as those from "The Fall of Gondolin", yet I'm not sure on what should the appropriate title for those images should be.
- Oh, if the images are titled in the book, then we should use those titles. I'll change the title of the one with Tevildo when I can check my book. --LorenzoCB 15:11, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Grammar on your user page
The past tense for the verb to teach in the third paragraph of your user page is wrong. You should write "Tolkien tought me ...". To teach is a verb with an irregular past tense. The past tense of teach is tought. I am not going to write anything in spanish here, but you are welcome to correct my spanish if I ever write anything in spanish. I picked up some spanish by listening to people and by reading the Diario de Cadiz during vacations in Spain (I have to admit that I had latin at school and french at school and at university, so I had some basis in roman languages to start from). My native language is german. I once read an article about books owned by J.R.R. Tolkien and was amazed to see that most of the books o that list were written in german. --Akhorahil 20:19, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
- Much appreciated! You can freely edit my Userpage if you want correct any grammar mistake. I'm searching now about it and the past tense of teach is actually taught: seems that tought is a common mistake, but thanks again for pointing out mine. About Tolkien's German books, Philology had had a strong development in Germany some time before Tolkien began college, so it was imperative for him to have those. --LorenzoCB 20:47, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
- You are correct. The past tense of the verb teach is taught. Taught is one of the few words in english that end with aught. More words end with ought and are pronounced in the same way as words ending with aught. --Akhorahil 13:45, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
Helge Fauskanger Optimal LOTR Prequel Movie
- Yes! I wish that too, it has very good ideas. But it is also too short, as it is only about Númenor, and Númenor only comes into the Second Age scenario after hundred of years. --LorenzoCB 18:24, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
First off, I just wanted to say thank you for all the work you've done on TG, it's always nice to see your username pop up under recent changes. I did want to mention clarily though, since I'm not entirely sure it's a word. I've seen you use it a few times, especially in etymology sections. It might just be a reoccurring typo; I think the word you're going for is "clearly". Sorry for being nitpicky, and for bugging you, I just wanted to let you know. --Grace18 02:11, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your words and correction. My English is still on work, so it is a relieve that we can count with users that take care of grammar. Feel free to correct my edits, I'll propably see it and learn from it. --LorenzoCB 09:13, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Names of Sauron
You can find the sources for the names and titles of Sauron that you asked for in the "Summary:" text box of your latest edit to the Sauron page on the Sauron page in the Origin section, in the Second Age section in the second paragraph, in the Black Years section in the last paragraph, in the On Númenor section in the second paragraph, in the The Necromancer section in the first paragraph, in the Etymology section and in the Other names and title section. If you have e-books of The Lord of the Rings and of the Silmarillion you can enter a name or title in the search field and look in which chapter or chapters on in which entry in the index it is included. --Akhorahil 14:43, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- I know the references of the Elvish names (I included most of them). I meant the names like 'Dark Power' , 'Black One', 'Black Hand', 'Nameless', which do not have any reference through the article or the Names section. I think I'm removing those until somebody provides proper references. The infobox is ridiculously long. --LorenzoCB 15:26, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Whatever. I'll try to find the references myself. --LorenzoCB 15:29, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- I can try to help pin some of them down. 'Black Hand' appears a couple pages into the "Of Túrin Turambar" chapter in the Silmarillion, although I can't tell if that refers to Morgoth or Sauron, I would have to reread the chapter. However, in The Two Towers, in The Black Gate is Closed, Gollum uses the name 'Black Hand' twice in reference to Sauron: "But master is going to take it to him, straight the the Black Hand" "He has only four [fingers] on the Black Hand". In Return of the King under The Pyre of Denethor, Gandalf twice refers to Sauron as the Dark Power, and the term is used later in the book. I'll work on some of the others, and try to add the references once I find them. Do the references just go in the infobox next to each name, and should all the names be references, even those that appear later in the article? --Grace18 16:06, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- That's useful, thanks! I'm making a proper list in the Names section, there we can include the references and explanation when necessary. We should avoid including references within the infobox, as it is suppoused to be a summary of the article (at least that's how I see it). --LorenzoCB 16:12, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sounds good! Is there a list of names still missing their sources that I can work off of? I don't want to end up redoing work someone else has already done. Looking at the article right now, it's hard for me to see what is sourced and unsourced among the names. --Grace18 16:16, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- I claimed the article because this is a tough topic, now I'm checking articles about specific names of him. The names of the Valar are quite a mess, but looks like Aragorn and Morgoth are more urgent. You'll probably have to deal with names randomly separated in articles, which should be merged with the main article (or not if they are names shared by others). --LorenzoCB 17:06, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Okay. I will look into the Aragorn and Morgoth articles and see what I can do. By the way, you may already have this, but I did a bit more hunting around for the other names of Sauron you mentioned: 'Black One' is used by Gollum to refer to Sauron in The Two Towers under The Black Gate is Closed. 'Nameless One' is used by Faramir in The Two Towers under A Window on the West, and is later used by the men of Gondor in Return of the King under the Siege of Gondor. --Grace18 17:13, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- No, I haven't checked those yet, you saved me time, much appreciated. --LorenzoCB 18:12, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Hey, which "single reference" are you referring to, and what is the "wiki's policy" concerning the "First Age of the Sun"? I am not aware of any such explicit policy and I think the "Ages of the Sun" is a fanon term (I looked for it in HoMe). Sage 09:47, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- As far as I know, the main reference to the "First Age" as the continuation of the Elder Days is the one from the Appendices that says the Exile of the Noldor happened at the end of the First Age. However, Tolkien, the wiki and the fandom use massively the term to refer to the dates after the rising of the Sun; it is not an explicit policy, but quite implicit. I said "First Age of the Sun" just to point out the difference between the different conceptions, I'm not proposing anything. There is a terminology hole and we should clarify that before mixing things around.--LorenzoCB 11:18, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- There is also a reference in HoMe that says that the First Age is much longer. Tolkien uses FA dates in the Grey Annals I think, but he doesn't equate FA 1 with solar year 1. This is a convention that began with Foster, which he admits is only a convention, and we follow it for better or worse, but no way it is a policy of the wiki, implicit or not, that we should consider everywhere in the articles that the First Age began in what Foster terms FA 1. Perhaps you might find some such references made years ago by other editors but it is not the first nor the last misconception that we detect in hindsight and we try to fix. On the contrary, that's what we should do. And yea, we follow fanon conventions when there is no better alternative, and when it is not contradicting the canon, but I think accepting "FA 1" as the beginning of the First Age within an article, is a mistake that perpetuates the misconception, and we have the option to avoid. I think removing or editing the First Age title in your list would do less "harm" than leaving it there. Sage 15:29, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- Where in the whole HoMe? I don't deny the facts, tho, but we cannot follow a convention and fix misconceptions at the same time. This is more complex than I thought and I'm just wondering, but I think that if we want to keep consistency in the wiki (which I think is prioritary), we have two options:
- What we cannot do is saying "the Exile of the Noldor happened at the end of the First Age in the F.A. 1". --LorenzoCB 16:16, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
I noticed that other users have info boxes that seem to be unlisted in the userboxes page. Things like "whether or not you believe that Tom Bombadil is the father of nature." To be honest, I was a little envious, but I am also wondering if there is some error that might need to be called to attention. I could have asked Mith, but he doesn't respond as actively as I write, but also you have answered some of my other questions, so I am asking you. Thank you, --Erónèhire 04:22, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- I didn't notice that. You can always click on edit a Userpage and copy whatever you want. Here is it: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Template:User_tom . --LorenzoCB 08:20, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- OK, thanks!--Erónèhire 15:15, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- Hi! I didn't notice what you say when I made those small edits, feel free to undo them. I find kinda rude that Tengwar made a massive edit when it is clear you were revising it slowly; remember claiming the article next time. I also don't know what to do with the article now, I'm not into the Third Age, so I can't add much. Maybe now that it is shorter, it will be easier to revise by adding what is missing (?) --LorenzoCB 08:25, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
Edits to Ancalagon, Carn Dum and other pages by a user with various IP addresses
Thank you for fixing the text and references of the Ancalagon page after the edits by an Anonymous user that seems to use different IP addresses and that does not seem to know the templates for the references. I fixed the text and the references on the Carn Dum page after the edits by what seems Tonne the same user with his or her references without templates. Some statements in the page were wrong and a lot was about Angmar and not about Carn Dum and were speculative statements. In my opinion, it does not Make Sense to duplicate much from the Angmar page and to speculate that all troops from Angmar came from Carn Dum and that every statement about Angmar also refers to Carn Dum. I focused the page in what is known about Carn Dum. Maybe you can Check the etymology section. --Akhorahil 15:11, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
- Good work! Yep, it is not uncommon to see references given to support assumptions and speculations, instead of giving the specific info of the article. I'll check the Etymology section when I can. --LorenzoCB 08:29, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
Carn Dûm etymology
The statement that Carndoom and Caron-dûn mean Red Valley in Noldorin is just a theory, because the note in Return of the Shadow only says that it means Red Valley, but it does not say in which language Carndoom and Caron-dûn are. Of course we can make a theory based on components, like carn, caron, doom and dûn. Can we leave the theory that it is Noldorin or Sindarin to Mr. Salo and others and stick to the facts that are available in the reference for the Statement? --Akhorahil 18:24, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
- Caron-dûm has not only known Noldorin elements which correspond with the given gloss "Red Valley". The name was replaced by Nanduhirion (RS:433), which is Sindarin in LOTR, the next phase of the Noldorin language. I don't see any problem explaining what language a name is even if it is not explicitly indicated in the given reference: by sight an Elvish name can be easily identify as Q(u)enya or Sindarin/Noldorin, which is not the case with Carn-dûm, as it casually corresponds with a Gaelic term. Tolkien didn't write every single name indicating "this is Quenya, this is Sindarin", so being that strict we would not be able to categorize most of the articles with Elvish names. Anyway, I'll change the section trying to keep order. --LorenzoCB 19:34, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
On the Ages headcanon
Hola Lorenzo, Creo que tus creencias sobre las Edades son muy interesantes. Aunque tengo un pensamiento rápido; en la Carta 211, Tolkien dice que cree que estamos al final de la Sexta Edad/comienzo de la Séptima. ¿Crees que quizás la Octava Edad podría ser aquella en la que Cristo regrese, o crees que la Sexta Edad está teniendo un final bastante largo?
Me disculpo; mi Español no es muy bueno y aprendí Español Latinoamericano.
- Buenos días Holdwine. Tu español se entiende perfectamente :) Espero que puedas entender mi parrafada.
- No creo que la Sexta Edad sea especialmente larga: en esa carta, Tolkien dice que desde el fin de la Tercera Edad han pasado 6000 años aproximadamente, o sea que la Cuarta Edad y la Quinta Edad pueden tener 2000 años cada una. Tampoco significa que nuestra edad actual vaya a acabar enseguida (o sí): Dios tiene el poder de prorrogar la historia todo lo que quiera (2 Pedro 3:8-9). He visto a muchos fans decir que empezamos una nueva edad con el fin de la Segunda Guerra Mundial, pero Tolkien no parece pensar eso (él escribió la carta en 1958). Además, no hay nada en el mundo que pueda igualar a la victoria de Cristo sobre la muerte. En cualquier caso, mi headcanon se basa más en conectar el legendarium con las edades del mundo en las que Tolkien se inspiró: ¿tal vez el único punto de inflexión entre la ficción y la historia real sea la religión?
- ¿Por qué crees que estemos en la Séptima Edad? Creo que la historia se puede medir de diferentes maneras, o sea que no es incompatible. En la Edad Media también se hablaba de que con Cristo empezó un tiempo de Sabbath, y que cuando vuelva comenzará la Octava Edad del Eterno Domingo. Es una idea muy bonita. --LorenzoCB 08:56, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
- Ah, supongo que no entendí completamente esa cita. Eso es lo que sucede cuando saco una cita de contexto sin mirar mi libro para comprobarlo.
- Yo mismo soy un cristiano devoto y estoy fascinado con la Iglesia medieval. Tendré que buscar la creencia de la que hablaste. Ciertamente parece una idea buena y plausible, y creo que sería una buena experiencia.
- Me alegro de que mi español sea comprensible. Han pasado tres años desde que me detuve para poder concentrarme en el latín, jaja.
- Yo encantado de hablar de estas cuestiones. Si quieres discutir otras cosas, no tengas problema en mandarme un e-mail o buscarme en Facebook. --LorenzoCB 10:01, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Y como podemos buscarte en facebook? Sage 15:19, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
- Por mi nombre. Si ya estás en el grupo de The Tolkien Society, me encontrarás rápido, pues no hay muchos Lorenzos. --LorenzoCB 15:22, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for cleaning up my chapter summaries. Sometimes I lose track of things or misinterpret them. Turiannerevarine 12:53, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
- No problem, the idea is to help each us other. Thank you for making those summaries, they should have been done years ago. --LorenzoCB 15:20, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
It is useful to include more precise references, which are independent of the page numbering, because it makes it easier for readers with an edition with different page numbering to find the source. Altough Help:References says that no page numbers should be included for some publications (with different editions with different page numbering), such as Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth, I personally do not have a problem to also include a page number in addition to a reference that is independent of the page number (e.g. the number of the paragraph or whether something is mentioned at the beginning, in the middle or at the end of a chapter with many paragraphs that are hard to count). I would appreciate if you do not delete such abstract references. --Akhorahil 15:57, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
- I think that the MoS should require the UT pagination, I asked for that long ago, but there are no admins to decide. Not including pagination for UT makes no sense, as Christopher Tolkien uses it, and there are not so many editions of UT, unlike TLOTR, which does require pagination. No offense to your additions, I love you get involved, but those abstract references are not very consistent with the rest of the wiki, and I think we should avoid them. --LorenzoCB 19:29, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
- I disagree. It is important to take into consideration that many readers nowadays only have electronic versions of the books and do not have paper versions of the books. So even with books who do not have paper versions with different page numbers, such readers can not find or verify the source if only a page number is provided in the reference. For such users abstract references that are independent of the page number makes it much quicker to find a source and to verify if that source really supports what is written on Tolkien Gateway. Consistency is not the point. The point is the utility and practicality of the references for as many readers as possible. In my opinion, abstract references that are independent of the page numbers and page numbers of the most common english paper editions of the books should be combined. --Akhorahil 09:33, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
- Well, that consideration also applies to any book. Consistency is mandatory for all matters. Why only apply abstract references to UT and just in a few articles? If you want to use that system, apply it systematically to every reference in the wiki, go ahead. --LorenzoCB 09:45, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
- Abstract references should be applied to all books in addition to the page numbers in the most common paper editions of the books. I have used abstract references not only for UT, but also for other books in the past (e.g. for WJ). I usually look at the templates for the books and then already use the most detailed subsection, note or appendix that is available in the template and add note numbers, $ numbers, paragraph numbers and any headings / titles that are in the book, but that have not already been included in the template. In the case of The History of Middle-earth books. --Akhorahil 08:56, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- Still you are missing the point of consistency: your are applying that system randomly. And as a system it is quite unprofessional, doesn't look good. A proper system to solve these matters is the Arda structural references, but neither this or yours are indicated in the Manual of Style. I you don't know the pages, do as the MoS says and just include the chapter, as The Silmarillion or The Hobbit. --LorenzoCB 11:55, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Neither the Manual of Style nor Help:References say that abstract references can not be used and thus do not say to just include the chapter. I am not applying that system randomly. Whether something "looks good" or not lies in the eye of the beholder and is a subjective value judgement. In my opinion, the utility of the references for readers who do not have the sources with the same page numbers and who do not have to read whole chapters to try to guess on which passage something could be based is more important. --Akhorahil 16:21, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- No problem. I always check the page of double redirects just in case. --LorenzoCB 17:04, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for creating the citation template for NoMe! It looks to be a top-notch template, which will find much use at TG. I had the intention today to create that very template, but I saw that you had been quick :-). --Morgan 21:50, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks! I figured we'd need it asap, so I made it based on previous templates. --LorenzoCB 09:34, 20 October 2021 (UTC)