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Talk:Exile of the Noldor

[edit] Exile of the Noldor vs. Flight of the Noldor

I am interested to know the reasoning behind naming this article "exile" over "flight." I feel like "flight" is a better neutral term and better explains the event. It's also the name of the chapter in The Silmarillion. Perhaps it was because part of this article seems to also be about Noldo exiles as a group of people, which is possibly itself an issue worth bringing up. Should different terms for the group of people and the event itself be explained by the same article? Interested to hear what others think about both of these topics. --Oromë 14:34, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Actually, I find "Flight of the Noldor" far less neutral, as it imples the Feanorian idea that the Eldar were captives in Aman. Anycase, numbers and general knowledge decide these questions, and in The Silmarillion, the term "Exile" is the most used term. And yes, the article also covers the Noldor as Exiles, that's why Exiled Noldor redirects here. --LorenzoCB 14:58, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Or maybe I am wrong and "Flight" is applied only to the part of the Exile of the Noldor when they leaved Aman. Maybe we could differenciate the events better: first the Flight of the Noldor (when they leave Aman), then the Return of the Noldor (when they arrive to Beleriand and settle there) and then the Exile of the Noldor (as the overall event and their life in exile). It would be easier to put all these events in a single article, but if we want to make comparisons with OVOTL it would be quite useful. --LorenzoCB 15:08, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
This article is framed/categorized in a way that makes it about the event itself, which is why I thought "flight" makes the most sense for its name. However, separating those topics into three categories of the same article makes sense to me. What if we keep the article focused on the Noldor leaving Aman as a single event, but include more information about why they do and the consequences/impact of doing so? "Flight": reasons for leaving and the act of leaving. "Exile": soured relationship with the Valar and consequences of leaving. "Return (to Middle-earth)": impact on Beleriand. --Oromë 15:39, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
One more comment about the article name: I feel that someone who is reading about this for the first time would see "Exile of the Noldor" and assume that the Noldor leave Aman because they are exiled. It's the other way around though: they leave Aman and are therefore exiled. In other words, the exile of the Noldor is a result of the flight of the Noldor. --Oromë 18:56, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
The way this article was expanded recently is making things even messier in my opinion and I think we need to figure out what exactly this is about. For example, the article starts with saying that this is about "the historical period near the end of the First Age when many of the Noldor, seeking revenge, departed from Valinor to Middle-earth." In other words, this is about the event of the Noldor leaving Aman and going to Beleriand. This is also the time period specified by the dates in the info box. However, the new "Partial End" section is talking about the end of the exile thousands of years later, not this single event. --Oromë 12:44, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Some of the things in the "Partial End" part was already there like Galadriel being the one of the last to leave Middle-earth. IMO the best way to do this would be to have it simply cover the flight of the Noldor from Aman and have it end when Feanor's ships leave Aman. Then have the "Return" article cover when they actually arrive in middle earth. --Turiannerevarine
I think a lot of what you wrote or moved there is actually useful for this article, but I feel like we could frame it with the event of leaving Aman better. Perhaps more of "this is what happens as an aftermath / consequence" instead of "this is how the event itself ends." I'm also still of the opinion that we should maybe merge the "Return" article into this one. I'm not sure where everyone stands on that because it looks like it has been brought up for years, but never happened. (I know LorenzoCB said we should but then recently changed his mind.) --Oromë 13:08, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
So I changed "Partial End" over to "Consequences" instead, which on reflection I think is a better term. On further reflection I am now actually pro-merging this article and "return". I realized its supposed to cover the entire historical period, not just the event.Turiannerevarine 13:46, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
I agree, "Consequences" works better. If we do decide to merge Return of the Noldor with this one, perhaps it could be a new section before Consequences called "Return to Middle-earth". --Oromë 14:31, 14 September 2021 (UTC)