Talk:High King of the Noldor
Comparing this article against the entry of Robert Foster's Guide, I notice this significant difference: while this article includes Finwe and Feanor, implying that the High Kingship exists since the Sundering of the Elves, Foster specifically mentions the High Kingship in context of the realms of Noldor in Beleriand. Finwe is not mentioned, and "Feanor would be the first" if he had not died early. Thus the first High King is Fingolfin.
Foster's interpretation makes sense since strictly speaking, "High King" is an overlord over many realms. Before the flight of the Noldor there were no realms, only a single people under Finwe in Aman. The title of the High King would be meaningful only in Beleriand. Indeed, after a hasty scanning of the QS, the words "High King of the Noldor" aren't mentioned until a later chapter. Sage 12:12, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
And when the tidings came to Balar of the fall of Gondolin and the death of Turgon, Ereinion Gil-galad son of Fingon was named High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth
—J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Silmarillion, "Quenta Silmarillion: Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin"
- Our articles seem to be saying that there were two "High King of the Noldor" - one in Aman and one in Middle-earth - and I think quotes like the one above are being used to justify it (see the succession box in Finwë, for instance). I'd be interested to know if this is backed up by other information in The History of Middle-earth. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 08:44, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Regarding the above quote, I don't think it implies that there are two High Kings (one in M-e, one in Valinor) but rather that the Noldor exist both in M-e and in Valinor. Gil-galad might have been High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth, but the specification "in Middle-earth" is only to exclude the Noldor in Valinor, not necessarily to imply an equivalent counterpart in Valinor. Sage 16:02, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- In The Silmarillion Finwë is never called "high king" of the Noldor neither is Fëanor who is not called even the king of the Noldor. Finwë's title is the king of the Noldor. In the Mereth Aderthad Fingolfin is still the king of the Noldor, but in the beginning of the chapter 18 he is first named as the high king of the Noldor. After him each of his successors (Fingon, Turgon, and Gil-galad) is called as the high king of the Noldor. I think that the title did not exist before Fingolfin, and supposedly in Aman there was no reason to call Finarfin the high king (wouldn't it have been awkward to have two high kings there, Ingwë and Finarfin whose folk was sorely diminished. Neither was Olwë called the high king of the Teleri.) In the Middle-earth the use of the title seems to be originated from the fact that there were several Noldorin kings who recognized the eldest ruler as superior to the others. In Aman there was no need to call anyone else but Ingwë as the high king, and even when Fëanor arrived to the Middle-earth there was only his people to rule. During the march towards Helcaraxë they obiviously did not have time to consider such matters. --Tik 17:30, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- +1 - "High King" implies that there were sub-kings/rulers, which was not the case in Aman, but makes perfect sense in the context of the multiple realms of the Noldor in Middle-earth.-- 19:39, 22 February 2014 (UTC)