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Talk:Twelve Houses of the Gondothlim

I just noticed that in the Gondolin article in Wikipedia they have a table of the Seven Houses of the Gondothlim (I took my information directly from the book). Would it be possible to create something like that, perhaps a bit more elaborate? --Narfil Palùrfalas 14:24, 1 June 2006 (EDT)

It's possible, of course: just a bit of copying and pasting. But is it necessary? We've already this article with the links to the seperate Houses. I think the info on the Houses should be in their own articles, not here. You could add maybe some more general info on the Houses here, if there's any. --Earendilyon 16:44, 1 June 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Terminology

We are using "Gondothlim" and "Gondolindrim" interchangeably. We should pick one and stick with it. I personally prefer "Gondolindrim" as I think that's what most people would use. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 15:57, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, I'm working on all the articles of the Houses so they are all consistent, but it takes time. I moved this to "Gondothlim" because "Houses of the Gondolindrim" is never mentioned by Tolkien, as the concept was never used beyond TBOLT. If people use other term is because headcanon; TG has a lot of it on the matter of Gondolin, mixing all the stages of the Legendarium (see the Ecthelion article I cleaned up recently). Thanks for adding the copyright template to the emblems I uploaded, I wasn't sure which one had to be included. --LorenzoCB 20:13, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
OK, but no normal person - no matter how well versed in Tolkien - would use the term "Twelve Houses of the Gondothlim" as that isn't helped. Also, Tolkien used Gondolindrim at the same time and this is more well-known. Also worth noting I don't think "Twelve Houses of..." with capitals is a proper term used by Tolkien; the only reference I can find is one without capitals which means the entire concept is "headcanon" as you put it. I think it's much safer to stick with "Houses of Gondolin" or similar as this also avoids the issues of whether there were eleven or twelve. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 06:28, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
No, Tolkien didn't use Gondothlim and Gondolindrim at the same time, one is Gnomish and the other is Sindarin, they are separed by decades of development. I agree that 'Houses of Gondolin' sounds like a good middle term, but I think it would be more practical to build on the basis this is a concept from the Lost Tales and then explain the possible developments in the later Legendarium, that are just a few conjectures, as can be read in what I just added in OVOTL. So, the article name 'of the Gondothlim' is a good way to point out this basis and teach people about. The Tale clarily says they were eleven and became twelve; and it is true that the capitals do not belong to the Tale, but isn't it a justified stylistic choice? At least for the article names, as I try to write them uncapitalized in the History sections. --LorenzoCB 08:29, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Article names are chosen for the convenience of the reader. "Twelve Houses of the Gondothlim" implies it is a proper name in English so we can't have that title. It's not simply a matter of style. And you acknowledge this isn't a proper noun by Tolkien but a descriptive term. We currently provide it as a proper noun when it isn't, and I'm proposing a different, easier, shorter, and more accessible descriptive term.
It is also something no one would ever search for; similarly, the article on the city in the Misty Mountains is at Moria and not Hadhodrond or Khazad-dûm as that is how people think of it.
You changed the article name without discussion. I don't dispute we need to educate people but we need to educate people on the terms that exist not the ones we've extrapolated. "Houses of Gondolin" is, as you acknowledge, a good compromise which is helpful for how people think about the concept (both searching within the wiki and on Google), and that is my proposal. It also has the benefit of being shorter and not immediately scaring readers they've clicked on the wrong article (which they do when they see a term they don't recognise).
Proposal: rename article "Houses of Gondolin".--10:25, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
My idea using "Gondothlim" was to change the article to be like the Thû one, exclusive for a BOLT concept. Now I understand better your position in relation with the wiki, but "Houses of Gondolin" is still a name created by us, while with "of Gondothlim" we are just adding capitals to Tolkien's words and avoiding that people think this concept was used in the later Legendarium. If you are worried about user searchings, which is essential, the wiki has redirects and TG is still the first result when searching "Houses of Gondolin" on Google. But ok, I'll agree with what is voted or you decide. --LorenzoCB 12:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
I've just realized that the [:Category:Twelve Houses of the Gondolindrim] and the template have the anachronical "of the Gondolindrim". Can we please solve the matter? I still think that "of the Gondothlim" is the best way to avoid people from thinking this is a concept used in later texts. --LorenzoCB 10:54, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
You know my view on the matter: I am still of the view that "Houses of Gondolin" would be better. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 09:52, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

[edit] Founders/Leaders?

Hey! I was wondering if these people FOUNDED or just simply LEAD these Houses. Please let me know! Thanks!--Yeyeye 16:02, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

The lords are always called as chiefs/leaders of their house, but not founders. There are some cases (like the Hammer of Wrath, the Mole and the Wing) in which the house seems to have been gathered at some point, but beyond those we don't know exactly the nature of the organization by groups (is it because consanguinity, professional interests, the charisma of the lord?). In the infoboxes I deliberately put only Tuor as founder and the rest as leaders. --LorenzoCB 19:12, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
Ok thanks! So were these Houses noble families like the House of Hador or just large affiliations?--Yeyeye 19:34, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
Seems more like the later, but see my last comment in Template talk:Noble House infobox. --LorenzoCB 20:12, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

[edit] A New Template for the Leaders of the Twelve Houses

Does anyone else think it would be a good idea to create a template for the lords of the Houses of Gondolin (sort of like the template for the Fellowship)? For example: every lord (Turgon, Glorfindel, Rog, Penlod, etc.) would have this template attached to their respective articles. --IvarTheBoneless

Yes. I wanted to make that after I finished expanding all the lords (only Turgon and Tuor are left). I'd copy the format of the Template:HousesofGondolin, although I still doubt what term would be the most appropiate. Feel free to make it if you know how. --LorenzoCB 21:18, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
My take on it would be something along [Template:LordsofGondolin], or [Template:LeadersoftheHousesofGondolin]. Although, I don't seem to be able to create any templates. --IvarTheBoneless
Ah, me neither. Seems like the main admin disabled anything related to templates. We depend on him then. I'll ask him. --LorenzoCB 09:19, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
I would suggest we add the leaders to the houses template, and then it is all together and people can flick through leaders and houses fairly easily. If you're happy with that, I'll action. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 08:58, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
That would be useful, yes. Although it sounds like a big template with too many links. I'm not seeing the result, so I'm probably wrong. Go ahead. --LorenzoCB 12:26, 20 August 2020 (UTC)