Tolkien Gateway

Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/31 August 2008/Transcript


<Hyarion> Welcome to the third weekly Tolkien Gateway meeting.
<Theoden1> OK, OK
<Hyarion> 6 people here today, not quite as many as the first meeting, but at least better than last time.
<Ederchil> last week was a bit odd
<Mith> How many were here last week?
<Hyarion> yes, I blame myself mainly.
<Ederchil> three or so who actually said something
<Hyarion> Thank you to both Ederchil and KingAragorn for running the meeting last week.
<Ederchil> more or less dialogue, not meeting
<Theoden1> I see
<KingAragorn> a dualogue :)
<Hyarion> Since most of us were missing last meeting, including myself, let's go ahead and re-discuss the Marketing of TG topic
<Hyarion> right now I think we have an amazing encyclopedia, one of our roadblocks seems to be introducing new users to the encyclopedia, as many people still aren't aware of it
* Mith would like to apologise for his own absence last week.
<Hyarion> Does anyone have any ideas for generating some more traffic?
<KingAragorn> yeah so ideas on how to promote it
<Hyarion> Maybe an interesting tidbit would be to know where most of our traffic comes from:
<Eldarion> what do you think about a wikipedia-article about TG?
<Ederchil> yeah
<KingAragorn> go on
<Ederchil> *drum roll*
<Theoden1> Advertising on some other related heavily trafficked sites?
<Hyarion> Eldarion, I don't think we're to that size yet, no Tolkien site has an article on Wikipedia.
<KingAragorn> Eldarion, not a bad idea, just whenever I made an article on wikipedia it was deleted
<Hyarion> Wikipedia is actually our #1 non-search engine referrer with 3,000 visits this month from them.
<Theoden1> It might help, and it would be free
<Hyarion> Wikia came in at #2 this month with 700 hits
<Ederchil> that's a big gap
<Eldarion> google likes sites, wikipedia links to
<Hyarion> our friends at ardapedia.herr-der-ringe-film.de were third with 250 visits from their wiki, thanks to our inter-wiki program
<Theoden1> Can we fight our way in?
<Hyarion> images.google.com is also a big referrer with a couple hundred visits this month
<Ederchil> maybe more interwiki's?
<Theoden1> Germans?
<Hyarion> we're working with the French, German, and Finnish wikis, we want to make sure we only work with high quality wikis and I'm not sure I'm aware of any others
<Ederchil> well, they're better than One Wiki's intewikis
<Eldarion> yeah, i think ardapedia is the biggest german one
<Hyarion> Google is our #1 search engine referrer with around 20,000 visits this month coming from Google, Yahoo was in second place with 2,000, MSN in 3rd with 200.
<Mith> We could always attempt to get ourself on here: http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/tolkientop/ as well as trying to interact with those websites. (In the UK Planet-Tolkien.com is a "big player", so to speak.)
<Theoden1> sounds good
<Hyarion> there are a couple Tolkien Top Lists around, mytolkien.com being the other one.
<Mith> Is that still going? Bloody hell!
<KingAragorn> what about the Tolkien Society
<Ederchil> it does have a links list
<Mith> I remember that from donkeys' years ago!
<Hyarion> We used to have links to them in the early days of TG, but in all honesty I don't think they are going to generate much traffic for us, and we would need to put 'advertising' links back to them.
<Hyarion> aside from inter-wiki links, I kind of like that we aren't associated with anyone else, we're fairly neutral
<KingAragorn> well I tried mending our relationship with TORn
<Mith> The Tolkien Society only has about a thousand members (and decreasing, judging by the member counts in the last couple of Emyn Hen). Andrew did a good job in promoting TG in a couple of editorials last year.
<Hyarion> KingAragorn, how did that go? :)
<Ederchil> can we quote those editorials?
<KingAragorn> we exchanged a few emails, and then they suddenly stopped so I guess thats an answer
<Mith> I don't know how member people visit the TS website; to be honest, it's a website which is in a right state - I don't know how often Andy (the Webmaster of TS) updates it.
<Hyarion> Mith, yes I don't think it gets updated often, I remember at least once sending in our link and it hasn't appeared yet.
<Mith> I think he intends to implement some kind of CMS and so a lot of the maintenance of the website is on hold.
<Hyarion> LotRPlaza.com tops all websites for delay in updating their links page however
<Hyarion> I received an email last year saying our link submission had been accepted
<Hyarion> I thought that was rather odd, because I had sent it in over 3-4 years earlier :p
<Theoden1> Years?
<Eldarion> couldn't we optimize TG for google, our beautiful aragorn-article is on page 3 if i type "aragorn"
<Hyarion> before we even had tolkiengateway.net, it was linking to tolkiengateway.tk or tolkiengatewa.cjb.net
<Hyarion> Eldarion, that's one thing that is really important, since the bulk of our traffic comes from Google searches
<Eldarion> hm
<Mith> Hmm, what can we do? To get more Google traffic.
<Hyarion> Tolkienion.com has us listed at #23 best Tolkien site, but he reviewed it several years ago so we'll have to ask him to re-review it, I'm sure we could get in the top 5-10: http://tolkienion.com/index2.php (and click LINKS)
<Theoden1> Get more backlinks
<Theoden1> I've done some link optimizing in the past, and that's what it takes
<Hyarion> The main thing with Google results is, as Theoden1 says, backlinks, the more people who link to our Christopher Tolkien article, the higher it will get on the results
<KingAragorn> the more links to our site the higher up on google it should be
<Eldarion> a wikipedia article would help^^
<KingAragorn> yeah shall we give wikipedia a go?
<Mith> I think the nazis at Wikipedia wouldn't allow it.
<Theoden1> We need to link to other high-rated sites
<Hyarion> no we aren't large enough for an article on Tolkien Gateway on Wikipedia
<Theoden1> that's how you raise your ranking
<Hyarion> what I do think we should focus on in regards to Wikipedia is adding a link from their articles to ours
<Eldarion> but we could add Weblinks at Wikipedia article with Tolkien content
<Hyarion> like our Christopher Tolkien is quite a bit better than theirs, I think that would justify a link to our article
<Theoden1> would they allow it?
<Eldarion> yes
<Ederchil> yeah, there's already a couple
<Theoden1> let's try
<Eldarion> i think so, if our article is better than the wikipedia one
<Hyarion> There is even a template on Wikipedia for linking to TG, Template:TolkienGateway
<Eldarion> ql
<Hyarion> surprisingly I didn't create it p
<Theoden1> where did it come from?
<Hyarion> quite a few articles are using the template and linking to TG: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:TolkienGateway
<KingAragorn> 16:21, 16 September 2007 Galadree-el (Talk | contribs) (388 bytes) (make template linking article to Tolkiengateway, a freecontent sister project exclusively contribute to Tolkien-related content
<Hyarion> We do need to make sure that if we add a link, we make sure our article is several times better than Wikipedia's, and we don't want to start adding excessive links as we want to stay friends with the community there.
<Ederchil> added one - I daresay Tom Shippey is better :)
<Hyarion> Wikipedia is great for getting new editors too, since someone who knows how to edit Wikipedia is more likely to edit Tolkien Gateway
<Hyarion> :)
<Hyarion> I concur
<KingAragorn> yeah
<Theoden1> true
<Hyarion> so I think a good idea would be to find Wikipedia stubs and focus on improving our own article as much as possible
<Hyarion> I think it will be a while before we have an article on 'The Lord of the Rings' as good as theirs
<Theoden1> ok
<KingAragorn> yeah sounds good
<Ederchil> agree
<Hyarion> Here is French Tolkien link sites with some reviews of TG: http://www.yrch.com/site.php?id=855
<Ederchil> but most tolkien stubs on wikipedia end up in lists...
<Hyarion> unfortunately that is the case, oh well, more reason for TG to exist
<Hyarion> The reviews I think do a good job at conveying how far we still have to go with TG
<Ederchil> for one, the wikirips
<Hyarion> Original content is imperative and we need to be strict in not allowing content copied from other sources
<Ederchil> there's so much already, it will be hard to identify
<Hyarion> We're getting better though, and soon I think every article will have been rewritten by us, but there are still quite a few articles on the wiki that we can not claim to be entirely our own.
<KingAragorn> there's a site http://derhobbit-film.de/indexengl.shtml which added a link to the one wiki, so maybe we should get them to swap it with TG
<Hyarion> right, which is why I think there is no reason to go through and tag everything or what not, we just need to focus on rewriting the articles, once it is rewritten we're good.
<Mith> That's been one of my bugbears for years
<Theoden1> How much of TG started with wikirips 3-4 years ago?
<Hyarion> KingAragorn, I wouldn't be so mean as to ask them to swap, but I think definitely letting them know about TG is a good idea.
<Hyarion> Theoden1, the majority of it unfortunately, and I take full blame for that.
<Ederchil> also a lot of Encyc of Arda rips
<Theoden1> Well, you had to start somewhere
<Mith> Yeah a lot of TEOA.
<Hyarion> yes, I think we have come a long way since then, but still have a long way to go.
<Mith> Keep pressing "Random Page" and you'll come across many one-liners straight from TEOA.
<Ederchil> well, at least "Fish" is original now...
<Mith> We have an aritcle on Fish?
<Hyarion> I know Ederchil does a lot of 'marketing' on IMDB.com forums, Tolkien forums would definitely be a good idea to focus on introducing people to TG
<Hyarion> and Strawberries :)
<Mith> I remember the strawberries arguments well.
<Ederchil> yeah, imdb is too random
<Hyarion> does anyone frequent any Tolkien forums?
<Theoden1> SB's?
<Ederchil> not anymore - more or less quit MT
<Hyarion> even a link to TG in forum signatures would make a big difference I think.
<Mith> It's a shame, really, there's been a real "drop off" in forums and people visiting them.
<Hyarion> I think most of us did
<Mith> I was never on MT.
<KingAragorn> i don't so i'm no good
<Mith> I don't really anymore, all the ones I visited died. (Including my own.)
<Mith> I loved admining and moderating fora - those days are long gone!
<Hyarion> the main ones I suspect are LotRPlaza.com and TheOneRing.net, TheOneRing.com, CouncilofElrond.com, BarrowDowns.com, etc.
<Mith> I hate LOTRPlaza
<Mith> The people there are... not very nice and honest people.
<Hyarion> one day I believe we'll start our own Tolkien forum, but we will wait until the community is large enough.
<Ederchil> what's the diff between TOR.net and TOR.com?
<Hyarion> Mith, I would unfortunatley have to agree.
<KingAragorn> tbh I'd never heard of LOTRPlaza before now
<Ederchil> what's wrong with Plaza?
<Hyarion> Ederchil, not related at all, theonering.com tends to focus more on the books
<Ederchil> ah
<Mith> www.arwen-undomiel.com, www.thetolkienforum.com are also very popular
<Mith> www.planet-tolkien.com too
<Hyarion> the Plaza is definitely the best place for high level Tolkien discussions, but it also the most arrogant and ego-filled place I've seen.
<Theoden1> I've seen arwen-- some good pics there
<Mith> You can get some of the most intellectual debates at the Plaza, but people are so unaccommodating of other people's views. Also, some of those "high brow" discussions are often people just stealing posts and ideas from other sites.
<Hyarion> lol, they actually forbid even /quoting/ from any PDF relating to Tolkien. (the Plaza that is)
<Ederchil> why?
<Mith> When I had my own Tolkien forum, people from the Plaza used to literally turn up and thieve posts.
<Mith> Arwen-undomiel is a mixed bag. On the one hand a lot of effort has gone into it and there are many resources there.
<Hyarion> I don't know of any Tolkien scholars who visit there :)
<Mith> On the other hand, many of those resources are mostly film-related, and, as Hyarion says, it's not the most high-brow of discussion fora.
<Mith> On the plus side, it does mean there are many people there who are desperate for the easy access to Tolkien knowledge which TG provides.
<Hyarion> true
<Theoden1> OK
<Ederchil> brb - grabbing a bite
<Hyarion> let's see, can anyone think of any other means for growing the community?
<Eldarion> could we somehow cooperate with tuckborough.net? don't know how, but perhaps...?
<Mith> The problem is, I don't know what kind of "return" we'd get from any of those sites. The Tolkien communities have really shrunk so that means fewer people frequent them.
<KingAragorn> but in a few years with the hobbit films, interest will increase again
<Mith> We could set up a proper discussion fora! If you can't tell, I'm all for fora!
<Hyarion> I talked to him about a merge a couple years ago and he wasn't interested, we are on his links page.
<Eldarion> aah okay
<Hyarion> Mith, we definitely will, as well as our own society, conventions, etc. once the community is large enough
<Mith> You've been saying those things for years. :P
<Hyarion> Eldarion, but that's the right direction, he does a thorough job with his entries, but I do like the idea of building everything we have on our own, we don't owe anything to anyone.
<Theoden1> we are growing...
<Hyarion> Mith, in due time :)
<Hyarion> our own Tolkien museum too, that will be nice.
<Mith> And magazine. :P
<Hyarion> so much can be done with a large community that sites like theonering.net just ignore, it is a shame.
<Mith> Hyarion, did you speak to Steuard Jensen about any possible merger or collaberation?
<Hyarion> Mith, seriously, we'll be doing it, once we start the Society, make it available for free as PDFs or at cost for printed
<Theoden1> the society?
<Theoden1> I miss something?
<Hyarion> Mith, I know we had a conversation but I can't remember the specifics, I don't think he was interested in moving the content over here, which I don't blame him.
<Mith> I know, I'm looking forward to it: I want to take part!
<Hyarion> Theoden1, eventually we can start our own international Tolkien Society.
<Theoden1> interesting
<Mith> I don't blame him - or anyone from any other site - either. I wouldn't want to give up my personally-crafted website.
<Hyarion> indeed, that's why I offer but don't bother trying, there are rare cases in which it is worth it for both parties.
<Mith> I think it is hard for us to get on other sites.
<Hyarion> that's one reason why I definitely don't want to have a forum, if we are competing with the forums it would be even harder
<Mith> It does seem to be a real up-hill struggle to get noticed, but once we have a bit of momentum it should get easier.
<Hyarion> since we are just a wiki there are very few sites competing with us and it is easier to become friends.
<Hyarion> agreed.
<Mith> But people who are really into fora (like I used to be), will pay attention to each other, and, in general, aren't hostile to each other.
<Hyarion> I agree.
<Mith> Each forum tends to form it's own identity and they accept others alongside their own.
<KingAragorn> ok so let's outline what we're gonna do with marketing and then we can move on
<Mith> Terrible apostrophic error. its*
<Hyarion> I think our first goal before doing a forum would be offering something unique
<Hyarion> yea let's try and stay on track with our agenda or we could be here forever :)
<Theoden1> OK, next?
<Hyarion> Wikipedia/Wikia: Link to articles on TG which are much better than theirs.
* Mith apologises.
<Hyarion> Forums: Include TG in signature and try to become more active there.
<Hyarion> Focus more on original content to increase ratings/reviews from visitors.
<Hyarion> did I miss anything?
<Mith> Can I just quickly add something?
<Theoden1> sounds good
<Hyarion> of course
<Mith> If you're going to add links to signatures of fora, the best way is to have an image to use.
<Ederchil> did I miss much?
<Hyarion> Ederchil, still on marketing, not much
<Mith> People mostly tend to ignore text links, images have more weight.
<KingAragorn> yeah
<Ederchil> banners?
<Hyarion> Mith, good point, we could use some logos/banners of TG
<KingAragorn> should we have an banner we all use?
<Mith> In fact, we could have a range of images and banners to encourage people to link to us?
<Theoden1> lets get a couple
<KingAragorn> true have a link to us page
<Hyarion> the hard part is deciding on one banner so everyone recognizes it
<Hyarion> maybe we should have some sort of contest for creating a banner/logo
<Eldarion> good idea
<KingAragorn> yeah interesting
<Ederchil> yeah
<Hyarion> nothing too complex so we can use it for a long time
<Eldarion> we could make a nomination page like for Featured Articles
<Mith> I'm all for that.
<Eldarion> and everyone can add his banner/logo
<Theoden1> OK
<Hyarion> I'm thinking something like the Tolkien Google logo petition, allow anyone to add some banners/logos then we vote after everyone has submitted
<Theoden1> a contest?
<Eldarion> yep
<Hyarion> maybe we can find something to give away as a prize
<Ederchil> the Google logo competition is a bit iof a mess
<Eldarion> why?
<Mith> Also, with regards to marketing (I was going to mention this earlier but forgot), I thought there was real merit in the Google logo competition as a way of advertising.
<Hyarion> that it is, still haven't convinced them, at least they haven't asked us to take it down yet
<Ederchil> 1) some horrid tengwar
<Ederchil> 2) anonymous votes, hard to track
<Hyarion> Mith, that's why I liked it so much, it is something you could send to news sites
<Eldarion> aha
<Hyarion> we don't have much newsworthy content
<Hyarion> eventually I'd like to focus on contacting Tolkien scholars and asking them to release some of their essays and upload them to the wiki
<Hyarion> there are thousands of really well done essays than barely anyone has read
<Mith> What are the mechanics for essays?
<Hyarion> that*
<Mith> I mean, where and how would we put them on the wiki?
<Mith> Would there be an Essay: namespace?
<Ederchil> my thoughts exactly
<Hyarion> the wiki isn't exactly ideal for essays, but it is possible we could do what Ardamir does, User:Ardamir/Essays/Title of essay
<Theoden1> we could set up a section for them
<Hyarion> I think under their userpage would probably be better than essays
<Theoden1> doable
<KingAragorn> I think the namespace is a good idea
<Mith> I think if they were under userpages, there's still a worry the essays could get "lost"
<Ederchil> what do you mean?
<Hyarion> we would have to say [[Essay:Title of essay by Author name]] to prevent duplicate titled essays, and with the user namespace we could easily lock the editing to only the author and allow amateur or professional scholars to upload
<Mith> (Side issue, is there still talk about a FAQ namespage)
<Hyarion> I do agree, there needs to be better navigation
<Hyarion> I know we had mentioned it but I'm still undecided
<Hyarion> I think it is probably best to just have the content in the most relevant article
<Hyarion> or like [[Balrog wings]]
<Hyarion> FAQ:Something just seems too non-encyclopedic, we could have infinite questions
<Ederchil> what category should balrog wings be under
<Ederchil> whole article needs cleanyp anyway
<Hyarion> hmm
<Ederchil> or [[legolas disputes]]
<Theoden1> where are we at on agenda?
<Hyarion> near the beginning :)
<Theoden1> we can't be here all day
<Hyarion> Ederchil, I'll have to get back to you on that, most sub-articles are hard to categoriez
<Hyarion> okay, we'll move on :)
<KingAragorn> should we discuss this next week and get back on the agenda
<Hyarion> Ederchil, your topic is next
<Mith> Wouldn't balrog wings be slightly problematic? As, after all, you can find texts to support either argument (in my view).
<Hyarion> Mith, yes, that's the subject of the article
<Ederchil> a library, my idea
<Hyarion> The creation of a Gateway-wide library, where users can ask other users for reference if they don't have a specific book.
<Hyarion> the floor is yours Ederchil
<Ederchil> yeah. Itś simple really.
<Theoden1> how does it work?
<Ederchil> just a list
<Ederchil> if you have a book, include your username
<Ederchil> for example, LotR WaW (in full of course)
<Ederchil> and then [[Theoden1]] and [[Ederchil]]
* Mith has that book
<Hyarion> I could see how this would work for rare books, like A Descriptive Bibliography, but something like The Hobbit it may be problematic
<Ederchil> on the next line
<Ederchil> yeah, I know. that was the point - the rarer works
<Ederchil> the more expensive too
<Theoden1> oh, a reference table
<Theoden1> that could work
<Hyarion> I'm also a little worried on the activity of the people who sign their names, the person wouldn't know who to contact, as anyone might take a long time or never respond, so they would almost have to ask everyone
<Hyarion> it might be easier for the person to just create a forum topic
<Mith> How would we contact someone else for a reference? Talk page? Channel? Messenger?
<Ederchil> hadn't thought of that yet
<Ederchil> talk page mostly
<Hyarion> "Question regarding A Descriptive Bibliography" the first person to see the forum article with the book would respond
<Hyarion> I like Ederchil's idea though, what I really want to do is create some system that could track all the books the editors have, so you could see which books most people have, etc.
<Mith> This may seem an odd question, but if someone doesn't own the book, how would they know they need it for a reference?
<Hyarion> I think like I see a quote that seems odd, and I don't have the book to check, so I would have to ask someone
<Eldarion> we could make a list and everybody who is looking for sth. could make an entry in this list
<Theoden1> ok
<Hyarion> my vote would just be to use the forum, or create separate forum if it was popular enough
<Ederchil> fine with that
<Eldarion> okay
<Theoden1> good
<Hyarion> simple is always good :)
<KingAragorn> yep
<Hyarion> although I think I need to increase the font on that statement that says the forum is for wiki discussions only :)
<Hyarion> that's the hard part, keeping generic Tolkien discussions off the talk pages, especially by anonymous people
<Ederchil> like the funeral guy
<Hyarion> yes :)
<Theoden1> just takes some vigilance
<Theoden1> funeral guy?
<Ederchil> I was maybe a bit too sarcastic
<Mith> It was, though, a valid question, I thought
<Hyarion> I don't think Theoden1 caught your sarcasm :p
<Ederchil> the abon who posted on Rohan, Elves, The Shire, and some place else about funerals, religion, and gays
* Theoden1 remembers now
<Hyarion> Mith, it is, there is actually a book on funeral customs, but we just don't want everyone talking about how hot Orlando Bloom is on the talk page
<Theoden1> I gave a response to that guy
<Theoden1> and you
<Mith> There's a book on funeral custom?
<Ederchil> yeah, we don't know much of it
<Hyarion> Mith, yea, let me find it, not a mainstream one, nor very large, but more than an essay I believe
<Theoden1> I see
<Hyarion> http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Funeral_Customs_in_Tolkien%27s_Trilogy
<Mith> I want a piece of that literary action!
<Ederchil> worth a dollar fifty. can't be much more, even for that time
<Hyarion> heh
<Mith> TS might have it.
<Ederchil> mith - me too
<Hyarion> okay, should we move on to the next topic?
<KingAragorn> go ahead
<Hyarion> Ederchil, is going to talk about "A renovation of the disambiguation system."
<Eldarion> yes
<Ederchil> my floor again
<Mith> £25 on Amazon.com!
<Ederchil> basically, getting rid of all the old disambiguations
<Hyarion> him, do you have an example link of an old one?
<Hyarion> hm*
<Ederchil> Legolas of Gondolin, Legolas of Mirkwood, Morwen of Rohan... where are they called that
<Hyarion> ah, yes.
<Hyarion> so more along the lines of naming titles than disambiguation
<Theoden1> how will the new be different?
<Ederchil> well, not just that, but also redirecting all the disambiguation pages to [[page (disambiguation)
<Hyarion> in the beginning I wasn't fond of using parentheses in the titles but I think now I've realized we are better off with it
<Theoden1> how about the 'maybe' pages?
<Ederchil> maybe?
<Theoden1> maybe you were looking for?
<Eldarion> so what would be the new name of 'Legolas of Mirkwood'?
<Ederchil> Legolas (Elf of Mirkwood)
<Eldarion> ah i see
<Ederchil> cause he's never called Legolas of Mirkwood
<Theoden1> more parentheses, huh?
<Ederchil> yep.
<Eldarion> yes
<Hyarion> I vote in favor of the change.
<Mith> I would change "Legolas of Mirkwood" to "Legolas", personally. 95% of people typing in Legolas mean him. I think we just confuse people
<Hyarion> it's important to make sure the visitor knows what the actual name is and what we ourselves added
<Theoden1> works for me, just be consistent
<Ederchil> yeah, like gimli
<Hyarion> I'm still undecided on that, I like treating all the characters as equal, but we should probably think about the people searching and what they are most likely looking for
<Mith> Yeah, exactly. Anyone who's sophisticated enough to know about the other Legolas will be able to find him.
<Mith> Frodo, also
<Ederchil> and for those who can't, a youmay will suffice
<Ederchil> bilbo
<Ederchil> no sams
<Mith> 99% of people will mean Frodo Baggins, not Gardner.
<Hyarion> I'd vote in favor of the parentheses and redirecting directly to major characters with a 'you may be looking for' template at the top
<Eldarion> agree!
<Mith> So, for me, I with the Legolas bit I would have "Legolas" and "Legolas (Elf of Gondolin)" and, if REALLY necessary, "Legolas (disambiguous)"
<Ederchil> but if there's three of a name?
<Hyarion> list them all at the top
<Ederchil> no redirect pages at all?
<Ederchil> *disambig
<Theoden1> we'll always need some
<Hyarion> hmm, Legolas vs. Legolas (Elf of Mirkwood), not sure on that one.
<Ederchil> legolas greenleaf refers to both, yet is a redirect to mirkwood
<Mith> To me personally, it's obvious. Also, those people visiting the site, when they type in "Legolas" they want the result there and then.
<Ederchil> yup
<Mith> Information superhighway is being slowed down by the disambiguous crossroads!
<Hyarion> yea, okay I could live with that
<Ederchil> but how about morwen?
<Mith> And Frodo
<Hyarion> and Aragorn
<Ederchil> Morwen has four
<Hyarion> we'll have to take these on a case-by-case basis
<Theoden1> would you assume (elf of mirkwood) by default?
<Ederchil> Húrin has five
<Theoden1> for example
<Mith> Yeah, I think when we have more than one character of the same, but it's obvious who the majority of people are searching for, we should link directly to that character.
<Theoden1> agreed
<Hyarion> when it is obvious we can link directly, but obvious is pretty relative
<Ederchil> and a disambig if it's not the case?
<Mith> Húrin I would similarly link straight to Húrin Thalion
<Theoden1> overwhelmingly popular=obvious
<Mith> Yeah, disambiguous if not.
<Hyarion> sounds good.
<Ederchil> but then we need like [[Húrin (disambiguation)]] for the other four
<Ederchil> cause I don't feel like naming them all at the top of thalion
<Hyarion> agreed
<Mith> That's sounds perfectly sensible to me.
<Ederchil> that was actually my main point - moving all disambiguation pages to a page with (disambig) in it
<Hyarion> sounds good to me.
<Theoden1> ok
<Ederchil> Minas Tirith, for example, to MT in Gondor
<Mith> Do we have a template for, "Húrin links here. For other uses of Húrin see Húrin (disambiguation)"?
<Ederchil> {{redirect}}
<Theoden1> that could work
<Ederchil> Already made it a while ago
<Hyarion> okay, so I think we've got a consensus here, should we move on?
<Mith> But that template says "You may be looking for..."
<Theoden1> I mentioned that
<Mith> You couldn't have "You may be looking for Húrin (disambiguation)"?
<Ederchil> easy to change
<Hyarion> might be best to create two templates
<Theoden1> ok
<Mith> And in fact
<Hyarion> one for single article and one for disambig
<Mith> Isn't that very nearly the same to the old "youmay" template?
<Ederchil> more or less. never been pleased with youmay, tbf
<Mith> Yeah. I think we're all in general agreement anyway.
<Theoden1> yeah
<Hyarion> okay, let's keep it rolling then, next up is Theoden1 with "Lay down some standards for selecting Featured Gatekeepers. "
<Theoden1> OK
<Theoden1> I think it would be good to start featuring some editors and promoting some people's hard work
<Theoden1> Maybe set it every 1-2 months or so
<Theoden1> what do you'all think?
<Mith> (I vote monthly)
<Ederchil> monthly
<Hyarion> unfortunately I just don't think we have enough editors still
<Ederchil> true
<Mith> I think it's a good idea, though
<Ederchil> in theory, mith, yes
<Hyarion> we would run out of people worth featuring and then have to resort to nominating anyone
<Mith> It boosts morale when you've worked hard on an article
<Theoden1> well we can try it on some trial basis
<Ederchil> Featured Gatekeeper: 76.753.99.1
<Theoden1> it does boost morale, like when I busted my butt on Arnor
<Ederchil> or Thelma on Númenóreans
<Mith> It can often be quite unrewarding when you've re-written an article and this is a way of acknowledging it.
<Theoden1> no numbers please
<Ederchil> Featured Gatekeeper: Bilboyo, then
<Hyarion> :p
<Theoden1> without blowing my horn, I worked on Num as well
<Theoden1> who?
<Hyarion> one of our best editors of course
<Theoden1> how about the standards
<Ederchil> http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/User:Bilboyo
<Theoden1> how about >300 edits or so
<Ederchil> numbero f edits is not really relevant
<Hyarion> I think someone could make a single edit and be worthy of being featured
<Hyarion> well, probably not, but the point is still there.
<Ederchil> I made a lot of edits when I renovated the years
<Ederchil> and categorized uncatted pages
<Ederchil> I agree with Hyarion on quality over quantity
<Theoden1> just listing some ideas so everybody couldn't just wander in the door
<Hyarion> they would have to be nominated by someone else.
<Theoden1> I meant that as a threshold, that's all
<Mith> I personally think there should be one criterion: deserve
<Theoden1> Hy- it would have to be a killer single edit
<Ederchil> there was this abon a while ago, who totally rewrote an article
<Hyarion> I've made some /awesome/ grammar fixes.
<Mith> I am awesome
<Theoden1> I think we're looking for substance
<Theoden1> We could use a nomination process
<Hyarion> Featured Gatekeeper is definitely a good idea, I just don't think we have enough people yet, and if we keep voting on people who deserve it less and less then it becomes less and less meaningful
<Mith> Although, thinking about it.
<Mith> It could be a bit of a gentleman's club.
<Theoden1> nothing wrong with that, we're gentlemen
<Ederchil> I thought THIS was the gentleman's club
<Mith> Us just nominating each other every month
<Theoden1> not that incestuous...
<Mith> Maybe there's a better way for us to be rewarded.
<Theoden1> Your idea?
<Ederchil> Do we still have awards?
<Theoden1> they hand them out at one wiki
<Theoden1> KA?
<Ederchil> I saw Narfil made some award pictures
<Hyarion> I think being featured is a good award, and then down the road we can have more, but I like the idea of keeping 'official' / have to be nominated/voted on awards, barnstars just seem so worthless
<Theoden1> KingAragorn?
<Mith> What happened to the awards actually
<Mith> Yeah Narfil did
<Hyarion> http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Forum:User_awards
<Mith> Some of them were very ugly in my opinion
<Hyarion> long discussion a couple years back
<Theoden1> Hy- what do you mean by official?
<Mith> But he made them nonetheless!
<Hyarion> Theoden1, with barnstars anyone can give them to anyone for anything
<Hyarion> I'd rather have some formal process to make them more...important
<Ederchil> maybe a barnstar nomination in meetings?
<Mith> But shouldn't some of the older and more loyal members be rewarded
<Hyarion> something like that
<Theoden1> I peeped the article
<Theoden1> interesting
<Hyarion> for those who haven't read that article on the awards, it is worth skimming, there are some good points
<Theoden1> why did you call them barnstars?
<KingAragorn> hi i'm back sorry
<Theoden1> talking about awards
<Hyarion> Theoden1, that is what Wikipedia uses.
<Theoden1> I see
<Ederchil> brb
<Theoden1> we should have some form of recognition
<KingAragorn> ah ye I had the article attack award at one wiki but I stole that idea from Lostpedia
<Theoden1> can we raise barnstars off the back shelf and start looking at it hard again?
<Mith> What about, Hyarion
<Mith> A group below administrators, stewards if you like
<Hyarion> I like the ideas presented in the User awards forum, different awards for different accomplishments.
<Mith> Just in recognition of the fact they are long-serving
<Mith> Doesn't have to be with any powers.
<Theoden1> that amoung other things
<Hyarion> then you have to define at what point does someone become inactive, if they don't edit for a week, month, year, etc.
<Theoden1> we could pick a standard, like 6 mos. or so
<Mith> You don't have to edit to be an important person in the community
<Theoden1> I hope that's part of it
<Mith> Although I haven't seen Brel/Tar-Telperien for a long time, I still think she would be deserving
<Ederchil> yeah right, mith
<Hyarion> she's on IRC frequently but has drifted away from the wiki
<Hyarion> Narfil was on IRC the other day, we might be able to get him back into editing a bit, he's been busy with school
<Ederchil> narfil's guy? oops
<Mith> Is that sarcasm, Ederchil?
<Ederchil> sorry, a bit sarcastic today
<Mith> That's what I mean, she hasn't editted in a while, has she?
<Hyarion> no
<Mith> But she's an important person in the history of TG
<Ederchil> a hall of famer?
<Theoden1> do we have one?
<Hyarion> do we need one? :p
<Ederchil> nope
<Ederchil> what we need, btw, is a better [[about]] page. more history.
<Theoden1> hall of shame?
<Hyarion> I'll try to write a better history article
<Mith> So is this, effectively, we all agree with featured gatekeepers and awards, but not yet?
<Theoden1> OK, can we agree to take another look at barnstars after all this time?
<Hyarion> Mith, yes, I agree.
<Ederchil> good. me too
<Hyarion> Theoden1, let's call them awards, barnstars are the meaningless images given out at Wikipedia :p
<Theoden1> but lets put awards back in consideration
<Theoden1> and discuss them further
<Theoden1> I can live with that
<Theoden1> Anything else?
<Ederchil> nope
<Hyarion> let's see
<Hyarion> yea, I'm not sure what to say for the next topic
<Hyarion> KingAragorn, I think you may have added it?
<Ederchil> can we please have another improvement drive article?
<Hyarion> "Improving the Featured Article system (rules, set up, etc.), a possible Improvement Drive (or at least a comprehensive system), amongst other things, such as an overhaul of Tolkien Gateway Projects. "
<Theoden1> good idea
<Ederchil> It was Cutler Beckett's
<Hyarion> ohh
<Hyarion> yea I'll just talk about it then
<KingAragorn> huh it was Lord Cutler Beckett
<Hyarion> gotcha.
<Ederchil> and he's where exactly?
<Theoden1> When was he last around here?
<Ederchil> when he came on
<Hyarion> we definitely need to focus more on the Improvement Drive
<Eldarion> yes
<Ederchil> any nomnations?
<Ederchil> maybe more at the same time? a list?
<Hyarion> hmm
<Mith> There was that
<Mith> And this is a long time ago now
<Theoden1> WaW chapters?
<Mith> TG Advent
<Eldarion> http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tolkien_Gateway:Collaborations
<Mith> 30 articles for the new year, do you remember?
<Hyarion> I don't know if we need an article for every WaW chapter
<Ederchil> read about it
<Ederchil> no, but at least an extensive article on it
<Theoden1> It would follow precedent for other books
<Ederchil> what other books?
<Hyarion> I don't think we have created any chapter articles for anything not written by Tolkien
<Theoden1> Sil, for one
<Ederchil> do we have an article for every chapter in Author of the Century?
<Mith> Is Weapons and Warfare such a crucial book?
<Mith> I mean, it's just a film one
<Theoden1> I see, canonicity snobbery again
<Hyarion> I do think Unfinished Tales, History of Middle-earth, Sil, LotR, Hobbit, CoH, deserve chapter articles.
<Hyarion> rofl @ 'canonicity snobbery'
<Ederchil> there's just some thing on HoMe -
<Theoden1> but not WAW
<Ederchil> disambiguation of chapters?
<Mith> I think there's a place for non-canon... just no on the TG, really.
<Hyarion> Ederchil, hmm
<Ederchil> there's a Minas Tirith in RotK proper, and in WotR
<Theoden1> its a chapter
<Hyarion> I think non-canon can be on TG if we are informing people that it is no canon, in the case of PJ's created characters, errors in books, etc.
<Hyarion> Ederchil, how about Minas Tirith (The Return of the King chapter)?
<KingAragorn> i agree ^^
<Theoden1> fine, flag it
<Ederchil> okay, Hyar. might work
<Mith> I think that's all well a good when those things are based on the works, but much of the stuff to do with the film weaponry is, to be honest, fabrication.
<Theoden1> it's enlightened inspiration
<Ederchil> enlightened by PJ, not JRRT
<Theoden1> based on the legendariom, dude
<Eldarion> sorry but i'm leaving now; it's 11pm here and school tomorrow :-(
<Ederchil> me too, soon
<Hyarion> thanks for coming in Eldarion, we're about done anyway.
<Hyarion> keep up the great work!
<Ederchil> academic year starts tomorrow
<Eldarion> yup, see you!
<Hyarion> think of Tolkien as science, being "inspired by science" doesn't quite justify being included in a science book.
<Theoden1> I teached little teenage knuckleheads on Tues. again
<Theoden1> OK, OK, are we done?
<Hyarion> okay, and last but not least, Mith is up with "Deciding and discussing some standards for songs and poems. "
<Ederchil> think so. I'm done at least. Good night all
<Hyarion> maybe it would be better if we just save it for next time then.
<Hyarion> good night Ederchil
<Mith> Yeah, roll it over to the next one
<Mith> Good night!
<Hyarion> will do, g'night
<KingAragorn> good night shall we leave Mith's discussin for next week
<Mith> Also, I've just had an idea, though!
<Theoden1> I will look over that awards page
<Hyarion> great
<Mith> It's Frodo's birthday coming up
<Mith> Could we use it to get noticed?
<Hyarion> looks like we clocked in just about 2 hours exactly.
<KingAragorn> 2 hours new record
<Hyarion> hm, how could we use it?
<Theoden1> don't give him a ring, please
<Mith> I already own one
<Hyarion> okay, meeting officially over, thanks for coming everyone, and we'll see you next week.