Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/4 December 2011/Transcript
[2011-12-04 20:22:00] <Mith> Welcome, to Tolkien Gateway's 28th meeting at 8pm (UTC) on 4th December 2011. Present are Amroth, Hyarion, kriskowal (Ainaldo), Mith and Morgan. We have received apologies from CaptainRolly, Ederchil and Gamling.
[2011-12-04 20:22:01] <Amroth> Is Hyarion still here?
[2011-12-04 20:22:10] <Hyarion> of course
[2011-12-04 20:22:17] <Amroth> great
[2011-12-04 20:22:50] <Mith> There is only one item on the agenda so far. That is Amroth with "Discussion about Gandalf/Names".
[2011-12-04 20:23:17] <Amroth> http://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Talk:Gandalf#Redirected_names
[2011-12-04 20:24:25] <kriskowal> I just have one thing I would like to share, if there’s room for a second agenda item: https://gist.github.com/1401887
[2011-12-04 20:24:38] <kriskowal> My notes from a close read of The Hobbit
[2011-12-04 20:25:09] <Mith> kriskowal, that can come afterwards when I do Any Other Business. :)
[2011-12-04 20:25:12] <Mith> Amroth?
[2011-12-04 20:25:18] <kriskowal> Sounds good.
[2011-12-04 20:25:59] <Hyarion> I think I'm in the minority but I still support keeping Quenya/Sindarin/etc. names as separate articles.
[2011-12-04 20:26:36] <Amroth> +1 to Hyarion
[2011-12-04 20:26:55] <Mith> I would be hideously uncomfortable if we were to reverse that decision in a meeting with so few editors
[2011-12-04 20:28:12] <Amroth> true
[2011-12-04 20:28:15] <Hyarion> oh agreed, that's not up for discussion at this point
[2011-12-04 20:28:27] <Amroth> Should we then postpone it?
[2011-12-04 20:28:51] <Mith> Is that what you wanted to discuss?
[2011-12-04 20:29:01] <Morgan> Yeah, I don't think we should take a decision right now. But I sort of agree with Hyarion and Mith, although I could accept merges "minor" names.
[2011-12-04 20:29:09] <Morgan> Hyarion and *Amroth
[2011-12-04 20:29:11] <Morgan> ;)
[2011-12-04 20:29:20] <Mith> I thought you wanted to discuss subpages upper/lower naming of them
[2011-12-04 20:29:53] <Morgan> That was KA, wasn't it?
[2011-12-04 20:30:06] <Amroth> No, I don't really care if it's upper or lower.
[2011-12-04 20:30:08] <Mith> Well KA was against the subpage I think
[2011-12-04 20:30:16] <Mith> And he was very heavily pro-upper case
[2011-12-04 20:30:38] <Hyarion> I'd rather see a longer article than having to deal with subpages
[2011-12-04 20:31:29] <Morgan> Haha, we all have very different opinions!
[2011-12-04 20:31:49] <Hyarion> although the downside to not having each name on its own article, we lose the traffic from people searching Google for those unique names
[2011-12-04 20:31:51] <Morgan> Structuring the information is difficult!
[2011-12-04 20:32:12] <kriskowal> I’m not so sure you would lose the Google juice.
[2011-12-04 20:32:38] <Hyarion> oh we already have now that the articles have been merged
[2011-12-04 20:32:40] <Amroth> I'm not in favor of subpages either.
[2011-12-04 20:32:53] <kriskowal> I think it would be good to have fewer, longer articles, with redirects on all the other names.
[2011-12-04 20:32:58] <Amroth> But, this isn't a good way either: http://www.tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Gandalf&oldid=175404#Names
[2011-12-04 20:33:23] <Amroth> I'd prefer to have an article about Láthspell
[2011-12-04 20:36:08] <kriskowal> I think it all depends only on whether there is enough content to warrant an article.
[2011-12-04 20:37:13] <kriskowal> Or enough *potential* content that someone might fill out. Láthspell could only ever have a sentence about it’s attested utterance and its plausible etymology.
[2011-12-04 20:37:14] <Hyarion> I think every Quenya/Sindarin name would have enough content, etymology, pronounciation, etc.
[2011-12-04 20:37:46] <kriskowal> I agree.
[2011-12-04 20:37:47] <Amroth> +1 to Hyarion (again)
[2011-12-04 20:37:57] <Morgan> This isn't exactly one sentence:
[2011-12-04 20:37:58] <Morgan> http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=L%C3%A1thspell&oldid=144376
[2011-12-04 20:37:59] <Morgan> ;)
[2011-12-04 20:38:53] <kriskowal> Fair enough. So, it’s a keeper.
[2011-12-04 20:39:28] <Morgan> The bigger issue is how we should approach the "decision-making" here
[2011-12-04 20:39:59] <Morgan> We could be democratic (on the forum or at a meeting with more people) and see which option gets most votes
[2011-12-04 20:40:18] <Mith> Well, we had sort of decided
[2011-12-04 20:40:21] <Morgan> The problem is that it's very complicated to change back and from, in case the majority changes
[2011-12-04 20:40:23] <Amroth> I prefer a meeting with more people.
[2011-12-04 20:40:42] <Mith> After years of discussion, we did actually agree in a very well-attended meeting to merge stuff
[2011-12-04 20:40:58] <Amroth> We did?
[2011-12-04 20:42:17] * Hyarion must have missed that one
[2011-12-04 20:42:45] <Amroth> I think I wasn't there either.
[2011-12-04 20:42:52] <Mith> Well, I thought we had
[2011-12-04 20:42:57] <Mith> Maybe we didn't
[2011-12-04 20:43:15] <Mith> There is this: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Forum:Redirecting_secondary_names
[2011-12-04 20:43:54] <Mith> Four to redirect, one against, and one neutral
[2011-12-04 20:44:04] <Mith> That's been there for nearly four months
[2011-12-04 20:44:16] <Mith> So we can't deny that there's been PLENTY of opportunity to respond
[2011-12-04 20:44:22] <Hyarion> yea I kept meaning to get around to respond to that
[2011-12-04 20:44:58] <Hyarion> oh yea, I'm (and Amroth) definitely in the minority, I'm fine with whatever the majority wants.
[2011-12-04 20:45:48] <Mith> Well, seeing as we've discussed this many times, and we've agreed that we can't decide now
[2011-12-04 20:46:37] <Mith> I say that people respond to that forum topic by the new year, at which point votes can be tallied and we can decide where to go from there.
[2011-12-04 20:46:54] <Hyarion> sounds good.
[2011-12-04 20:47:03] <Amroth> okay
[2011-12-04 20:47:31] <Morgan> sure
[2011-12-04 20:48:09] <Mith> OK
[2011-12-04 20:48:12] <Morgan> Mith: I have a short point also, which you can put in last
[2011-12-04 20:48:19] <Mith> Any Other Business
[2011-12-04 20:48:29] <Mith> Kriskowal, you had something
[2011-12-04 20:48:38] -->| Icarus (icarus@tolkiengateway-BC7A7D42.static.exetel.com.au) has joined #wiki
[2011-12-04 20:48:45] <Hyarion> hi Icarus
[2011-12-04 20:48:52] <Amroth> Hello Icarus
[2011-12-04 20:49:22] <kriskowal> Mith, yes. I took some detailed notes on The Hobbit https://gist.github.com/1401887
[2011-12-04 20:49:25] <Icarus> Hey :)
[2011-12-04 20:49:28] <Morgan> kriskowal: nice research - why not start adding it to the TG articles? :)
[2011-12-04 20:49:36] <kriskowal> That’s the plan.
[2011-12-04 20:50:04] <kriskowal> Wouldn’t mind a hand though. I find myself yak shaving whenever I start editing on TG.
[2011-12-04 20:50:09] <Morgan> Good! Remember that we can't use page numbers for The Hobbit on TG, though, since there are so many editions (actually - do they differ in pagination?)
[2011-12-04 20:50:32] <kriskowal> I am not certain, but having page numbers in at least one edition is probably helpful.
[2011-12-04 20:50:50] <Icarus> Nice work!
[2011-12-04 20:51:03] <Amroth> Look's good!
[2011-12-04 20:51:14] <Icarus> Must do that in LOTR ;) I will if I can over the hols ;)
[2011-12-04 20:51:32] <Amroth> I've to go
[2011-12-04 20:51:34] <kriskowal> That very problem got me thinking that it would be a good project to make a system for extrapolating probable locations of quotes through crowd sourcing.
[2011-12-04 20:51:35] <Morgan> It depends, I would say. Only if it's clearly stated in the reference which edition it refers to.
[2011-12-04 20:51:37] <Morgan> Bye, Amroth
[2011-12-04 20:51:44] <Amroth> As I've to wake up at 6:30 AM tomorrow.
[2011-12-04 20:51:52] <kriskowal> For sure. I’ll make sure to do that, if that’s alright.
[2011-12-04 20:51:58] <Morgan> Which edition did you use, btw?
[2011-12-04 20:52:00] <Hyarion> thanks for joining us Amroth, have a great week
[2011-12-04 20:52:25] <Amroth> Hyarion: That will be mostly working and studying
[2011-12-04 20:52:25] <kriskowal> It was a recent one, I think.
[2011-12-04 20:52:29] <Amroth> But thanks, anyway.
[2011-12-04 20:52:33] <Amroth> Bye everybody.
[2011-12-04 20:52:36] |<-- Amroth has left irc.tolkiengateway.net (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[2011-12-04 20:53:26] <Morgan> Kriskowal - do you have the Annotated Hobbit?
[2011-12-04 20:53:31] <Icarus> kriskowal: Describe the cover, and perhaps we may be able to deduce the edition :P
[2011-12-04 20:53:50] <Morgan> It has a fixed pagination, so it would be easier to use (and it includes the entire text of The Hobbit=
[2011-12-04 20:54:01] <Icarus> Aww, the school library has an illustrated Hobbit, I was half-tempted to get it just for the illustrations XD
[2011-12-04 20:54:21] <kriskowal> Morgan, Icarus, I am looking it up, sec.
[2011-12-04 20:54:29] <Icarus> OK
[2011-12-04 20:55:18] <kriskowal> http://photo.goodreads.com/books/1295996270l/437049.jpg
[2011-12-04 20:56:02] <Morgan> Looks like an American edition, Ballantine Books, I'd guess
[2011-12-04 20:56:11] <kriskowal> I believe so.
[2011-12-04 20:56:35] <Icarus> I've seen that one before
[2011-12-04 20:56:57] <Mith> Anyway
[2011-12-04 20:57:28] <Mith> The probably page numbers in references is one we aren't going to solve in the bounds of this meeting.
[2011-12-04 20:58:12] <kriskowal> Yeah, certainly not.
[2011-12-04 20:58:16] <Mith> Your data looks veyr useful, kris, and will surely add some useful information to our articles. I often think that we lack some of the more character-descriptive traits you've covered in your research.
[2011-12-04 20:58:59] <kriskowal> It would be handy to keep track of which facts have been incorporated, like a check list or something.
[2011-12-04 20:59:10] <Icarus> kriskowal: Care to check inside the book for that particular edition's published year?
[2011-12-04 20:59:15] <kriskowal> Maybe I can set up a google spreadsheet.
[2011-12-04 20:59:21] <kriskowal> Sure. I’ll go fetch it.
[2011-12-04 20:59:33] <Mith> OK.
[2011-12-04 20:59:41] <Mith> Morgan, you had a piece of other business?
[2011-12-04 20:59:45] <Morgan> Yep
[2011-12-04 20:59:51] <Morgan> A suggestion for the meetings
[2011-12-04 21:00:19] <Morgan> How about having a fixed section for "tidbits" and general information/news?
[2011-12-04 21:00:23] <Morgan> (about TG!)
[2011-12-04 21:01:10] <Morgan> Sort of asking everyone, as a finale, if they have some interesting news concerning TG
[2011-12-04 21:01:13] <Morgan> ...well
[2011-12-04 21:01:31] <Mith> OK.
[2011-12-04 21:01:36] <kriskowal> Icarus, I am terrible at reading these but, the latest date is 1997. ISBN 0-618-002211-9 And Houghton Mifflin
[2011-12-04 21:01:52] <Mith> Morgan, do you have any interesting news covering TG?
[2011-12-04 21:02:17] <kriskowal> Well, one tidbit is I’m starting a new mapping project.
[2011-12-04 21:02:36] <Icarus> Is it the 60th Anniversary Edition, perhaps?
[2011-12-04 21:02:41] <Morgan> The rumour has reached me that now have tolkiengateway.net addresses for the admins!
[2011-12-04 21:02:44] <kriskowal> It will be all digital, based on Chris Taylor’s map.
[2011-12-04 21:03:14] <Hyarion> oh, interesting tidbid: over Thanksgiving weekend we hit our highest visitors in a single day, over 4,000
[2011-12-04 21:03:18] <Hyarion> tidbit*
[2011-12-04 21:03:45] <kriskowal> Icarus, might be, but it does not outright say it.
[2011-12-04 21:03:51] <Icarus> Hmm
[2011-12-04 21:04:23] <Icarus> Well, afaik, the only Houghton Mifflin printed that year was the 60th A.E.
[2011-12-04 21:04:27] <Mith> I have a TG email address, yes
[2011-12-04 21:05:13] <Morgan> Another tidbit: I'm in the process of negotiating a free permission from the Unversity of Melbourn archives to use an image of Cowling on TG.
[2011-12-04 21:05:14] <Icarus> But that's odd, as it generally would, being such a momentous occasion
[2011-12-04 21:05:23] <Icarus> :P
[2011-12-04 21:05:30] <Icarus> Cowling?
[2011-12-04 21:05:49] <Icarus> Well, I'm off!
[2011-12-04 21:05:55] <Morgan> http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/G.H._Cowling
[2011-12-04 21:05:55] <Icarus> See you later, chaos!
[2011-12-04 21:05:58] <Morgan> Not very famous! ;)
[2011-12-04 21:06:35] <Mith> I have a piece of quite self-serving news: on Wednesday it will be the fifth anniversary of when I signed up!
[2011-12-04 21:06:49] <Morgan> Congrats, Mith!
[2011-12-04 21:06:51] |<-- Icarus has left irc.tolkiengateway.net (Client exited)
[2011-12-04 21:07:05] <Morgan> Hyarion: the highest visitor ever, since the start?
[2011-12-04 21:07:13] <Morgan> *visitors
[2011-12-04 21:09:01] <Mith> Also
[2011-12-04 21:09:12] <Mith> I'm trying to plough through the Index
[2011-12-04 21:09:39] <Morgan> Was the CYril guy a special case?
[2011-12-04 21:09:53] <Mith> No
[2011-12-04 21:10:04] <Mith> All people are indexed by birth first name and surname
[2011-12-04 21:10:16] <Morgan> Ok!
[2011-12-04 21:10:36] <Mith> It just seemed simpler that way
[2011-12-04 21:10:48] <Mith> Also
[2011-12-04 21:10:48] <Morgan> Becasue I double-checked with just "Audrey Corman", which wasn't on Index:A
[2011-12-04 21:10:51] <Morgan> Perhaps a mistake?
[2011-12-04 21:11:26] <Mith> She is
[2011-12-04 21:11:39] <Mith> Between Audiobooks and August
[2011-12-04 21:11:46] <Morgan> Oh, sorry!
[2011-12-04 21:12:15] <Mith> Also! I updated the Home Page with Countdown ot The Hobbit
[2011-12-04 21:13:03] <Morgan> Good
[2011-12-04 21:13:08] |<-- Hyarion has left irc.tolkiengateway.net (Connection reset by peer)
[2011-12-04 21:13:13] -->| Hyarion (Hyarion@18E4579.53AF8E46.2E0DF218.IP) has joined #wiki
[2011-12-04 21:15:53] <Mith> OK, I think we can call this to an end
[2011-12-04 21:16:04] <Mith> Thank you all for coming. See you next month!