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Talk:War of Wrath

Question about numbers given in "war of the wrath"

Strengths: Morgoth--Hundreds of thousands or millions


If Fingolfin came with approx. 5000 or so (which seems a reasonable number) and his host was greater than Feanor's, and the majority of the Noldor came back to Middle-Earth. How many would've been left in Valinor? Perhaps a few thousand? It is implied that the Noldor outnumbered the Vanyar, so there would then have to be less than approx. ten thousand Vanyar. Since it is stated rather clearly that Elves were not in the habit of having large numbers of children, (Feanor and his wife having seven children in six childbirths is a rare exception.) How would a few thousand Noldor left in Valinor and several thousand (maybe?) Vanyar multiply in only five-hundred years into "millions?"

If 2500 Noldor remained and there were 7500 Vanyar total, that leaves 10 000 total.

Approx. half would be female, but probably not all female Elves would wed and have children. If they had approx. 2.4-2.7 children on average each, how many children would each generation add? Elves being immortal would probably not have children in the same manner as Men, so five hundred years might allow for, what, five to seven generations of Elves? Even with these very rough numbers, it seems that it would take far longer for Elves to number anywhere near the "millions" given. Unless, of course, the original numbers for Fingolfin's and Feanor's hosts are way off--though they seem reasonable based on the only actual numbers quoted, that being Turgon's army of ten-thousand at the Nirnaeth.

I think your last sentence sums it up in that the original numbers are way off, and that there were far more Nolder who Exiled to Middle-Earth than ~5,000 to 8,000. My personal number puts it more like ~200,000 (~75k under Feanor and ~125k under Fingolfin/Finarfin). Only a few (probably dozens?) turned back with Finarfin, and possibly another several thousand were lost crossing the Helcaraxe. In the end, I would say at least 190,000 Nolder made it to M-E. Of those who remained in Aman, Nolder and Vanyar, I would estimate their number at ~100,000. I could see them easily multiplying to a couple million in 500 years. Now, could they have multiplied enough to provide "millions" for an army? No. An army of 500,000? Sure. Also, please don't assume that Turgon sent Gondolin's entire army to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. I'd guess half at most.

[edit] infobox

Should the infobox of this page be changed to the war infobox instead of the battle one, because of the name? Also, because there were many minor battles in this conflict including the Battle of Eglarest. More info about the minor battles should also be included. Please advise--Yeyeye 02:57, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I think you have a point. I'd like to see if any other objects before doing the change. Sage 09:41, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
I also agree that this is technically a war, but this infobox was used because it is part of the Battles of Beleriand. Also we don't have much idea of other battles within this one, so I don't think we really need the other infobox.--LorenzoCB 12:20, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
I agree with the logic, however as Lorenzo pointed out there is not much known of the other battles that occurred save for a few and from what I can remember there are a some inconsistencies and contradictions of the different accounts found in SiLmarillion and in HOME. Though I do kinda like how its part of the 'wars of beleriand' umbrella. I would like to know what others thing about this as well. Gaetano 11:25, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

[edit] Sauron as a commander

I don't recall The Silmarillion having Sauron participate in the War of Wrath. Sure, he came in its aftermath in a fair guise before Eonwe, but the last we hear of him as the lieutenant of Morgoth is in Beren and Luthien, where Huan and the Elf-Maia maiden defeat him and he cedes the keys of the dungeons of Tol-in-Gaurhoth - he then flees as a great bat to lick his wounds and evade Morgoth's scorn, filling Taur-nu-Fuin with terror. I read somewhere (a note probably) that J.R.R. considered Sauron at some point as being responsible for the capture of Maeglin, but given the name appears only in brackets and his part in Morgoth's plans concerning Gondolin does not appear in published work I think it's safe to assume that Sauron remained hidden until and during the War of Wrath, given there's no explicit mention of him playing an active role on Morgoth's side. So might we remove him from the commanders' list? --LordoftheEarth 13:39, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Sounds accurate to me. --Mord 16:45, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes. --LorenzoCB 16:51, 17 May 2021 (UTC)