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Talk:Balrogs

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[edit] Different Image

I don't particularly like Steve Hidook's Balrog image. I'd like to replace it with an image by Daniel Govar or John Howe. Is there a system for changing images of popular entries? Thanks. --Ebakunin 01:05, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

Daniel Govar
John Howe


Thanks for bringing this to our attention Ebakunin as this was definitely something that would arise and we need to have a system for. At the moment because of the amount of activity on the encyclopedia one is free to edit and change out any images one likes. Sometimes a fresh image is needed. I definitely agree that especially the John Howe image would make a great replacement. In the future however I think it would be preferred to vote on changing the primary image of an article, as it truly needs to be the best representation of the article and this can cause hostility and edit wars when the choice of the image differs among editors. In short, do as you please as the encyclopedia is as much yours as it is anyone else's :) --Hyarion 01:13, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

Can we please NOT have any of the three images above? Because none of them remotely represent the Balrog. The John Howe one which is the current image shows a Balrog as having horns and fangs! I can't bear to look at it. Balrogs look somewhat like MEN, people, not huge horned, tailed monsters, and none of these images do justice to the Balrog's dark aura. I'm deleting the image. If you do a Google Image search for 'Balrog', not one of the finds is even close to a real Balrog. The movie Balrog has misguided many people, and these images only serve to misguide people further. Better to have no image than a misguiding one. I myself am a pitiful artist, but if someone could draw or find a good textually correct image of a Balrog, please do post it.--Barnikel 00:20, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

I'm leaving the movie image at the bottom, because it is clearly demarcated as a portrayal in an adaptation. The other Howe images were posted like they were authoritative Balrog images, in the middle of an argument about wings.--Barnikel 00:28, 5 June 2006 (EDT)
I agree with Barnikel that the image from The Lord of the Rings (film series) should be kept for the sake of all the movie-fans. While we also need to make sure the images at least remotely resemble a Balrog, I also think its important to at least display some images even though they may not be accurate, otherwise all our articles would be imageless save the ones drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien himself. Maybe if we list what is inaccurate about the image when displayed. That being said I'm fine with leaving the above images off of the article for now until we can find some more appropriate ones. Thanks for your input! --Hyarion 01:18, 5 June 2006 (EDT)
Unfortunately Hyarion is right. I have yet to see an artist draw a balrog with no wings (debatable - wouldn't reject their image for that), about twice the height of a man (see Lost Tales 2), and the rest. John Howe's do look more beast-like than man-like. I have heard, however, than an image by Rob Alexander came close, though I can't confirm that. --Narfil Palùrfalas 07:53, 5 June 2006 (EDT)
Hyarion, I am not saying that all articles be imageless. There are many cases where even, shudder, movie images won't do much harm (although here artist images would be better). Like, Gandalf, for example. But the Balrog is a special case. In the absense of authoritative images, people tend to imagine Balrogs as artists have erroneously portrayed them for decades. But at a place like this, where there should be consistent and correct information about Tolkien's world, we shouldn't be posting images just to make articles look less bland, especially in cases like Balrogs or Ents. So I don't think it would be a problem not to have images for some articles like this one.--Barnikel 11:06, 5 June 2006 (EDT)
Narfil, I assume you meant this picture?
Rob Alexander - The Balrog of Moria.jpg
I think this picture portrays the Balrog rather decent. The quality of the pic itself isn't that decent, unfortunately. --Earendilyon 11:15, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Wings

Could we put in the "For Wings" Section that it is possible that the Balrogs had wings, but never used them [like penguins, maybe? ;)]? -Lord Aragorn1414 14:44, 17 July 2006 (EDT)

I definitely think that is worthy of mentioning and was surprised to find it is not already listed. Though I'm not sure Balrogs should be compared to penguins :p --Hyarion 14:48, 17 July 2006 (EDT)
This is mentioned in passing in the against wings section: "Obviously, it is possible that the wings could not be used for flying." --Ted C 16:37, 16 November 2006 (EST)
Related: Did anyone besides me get the impression that the movie Balrog's wings were basically composed of smoke, making them useless for flight? --Ted C 16:41, 16 November 2006 (EST)
Yeah, it certainly seems like that to me, I think Jackson did a great job in avoiding the wings controversy. Ælfwine228 15:37, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Plural of Balrog

Isn't Balrogs the anglicisation for the plural for Balrog? Shouldn't it correctly be called Balryg? Unsigned comment by Pinkkeith (talk • contribs).

The correct Sindarin plural of Balrog is unknown: it could be Belryg, Balryg, Belroeg or Balroeg. None of these is attested, while "Balrogs" is. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 15:24, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Balrogs as Allies or Servants of Sauron

Balrogs were the servants of Morgoth in the Wars of Beleriand. After the destructive War of Wrath, we know that the remaining Demons of Might hid themselves at the roots of the earth, deep beneath the tunnels and caverns of the mountains. From the stories of the Wars of Middle-earth, amoung the agents and followers of Sauron are counted for sure: orcs, uruk-hai, half-trolls, trolls, bats, vampires, wargs, wolves, werewolves, wraiths, spectres, phantoms, fire-breathing dragons, fell beasts, great beasts, oliphaunts, wicked-dwarvers, evil men, crows... Balrogs are never explicitly mentioned in relation to Sauron. But after rereading 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age' in The Silmarillion I found this quote "And he gathered again under his government all the evil things of the days of Morgoth, that remained on earth or beneath it." This clearly indicates that there were some Balrogs (other than Durin's Bane) out there who followed Sauron, meaning they can be categorized as SERVANTS OF SAURON (with a partial affiliation in the infobox).--LordoftheEarth 15:58, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

That's speculation that might be pertinent in some part, but not as categorization or included in the infobox or main body of an article. Pretty sure Tolkien limited the number of Balrogs down to 7 precisely because if Sauron had even one under control, it would have been known. Also it seems so improbable that a Maia would serve another Maia. --LorenzoCB 16:28, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Ok, Tolkien's words are speculation nowadays. People can't draw conclusions from explicit material as if The Silmarillion is non-canon. I quote again: "And he gathered again under his government all the evil things of the days of Morgoth, that remained on earth or beneath it". (And are Balrogs not from this category? Or what are they.... fiery puppies?). "All" is an absolute word, with much significance. The entire section claiming that the number or Balrogs is related to Sauron is unsourced material and therefore speculation (it's true that Tolkien narrowed them to 7 at most, but the rest is your opinion). Your last point is wrong: Saruman, a Maia, was dominated by Sauron, a greater Maia, and became his servant; albeit one willing to cheat his master by getting the Ring (he is still a double-faced vassal nonetheless). Another editor's opinion?--LordoftheEarth 09:55, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
I wouldn't read "all" literally. We don't know for sure if Durin's Bane was under Sauron's control, but probably it wasn't--Sauron could have much better use of such a deadly servant than having him/her roam the empty halls of Moria. Nor do we know whether any Balrogs besides Durin's Bane survived the War of Wrath. And we do know that Sauron did not come to control the dragons, for instance. Ultimately, there is too much uncertainty to conclude that the Balrogs ever served him after Morgoth's "death", and based on what we do know, it seems more likely that none ever did. Protospace 05:05, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Ok. Then we leave the article as it is. (I cannot entirely agree with dragons not under Sauron's sway: when his power grew again, Dragons and Orcs multiplied to great numbers and became severe threats to the Dwarves; since Gandalf feared Sauron could use Smaug, we can assume that the Enemy had done so in the past with a dragon other than Smaug).--LordoftheEarth 14:49, 23 July 2020 (UTC)