Talk:Curufin

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Source of Quote[edit source]

Can anyone verify the source of the quote in the entry? I think it's from the Lay of Leithian, but I don't have the source material in front of me. Thanks. --Ebakunin 19:08, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

I just did a search through my copy of the Lay of Leithian as well as all my Tolkien documents and its not in there. Google also turns up no results so I'm not sure where it's from... --Hyarion 19:22, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

Fifth son?[edit source]

In Vinyar Tengwar 41 and in The Peoples of Middle-earth, both including very late writings (late '60s), Curufin is consistently shown as the 4th son of Feanor, older than Caranthir...I seriously think we have to reach a site-wide, definitive, crystal clear consensus on what Tolkien's writings are to be included in the main sections of the articles - does The Silmarillion take precedence in matters such as this, or Tolkien's latest writings? IvarTheBoneless 20:01, 22 October 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As the canon policy says, we should keep it as Christopher decided, so unless he showed some regret in the commentaries, we should keep the order showed in The Silmarillion. --LorenzoCB 08:42, 23 October 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think we should go with fourth son, and include a note that in the Sil he's listed as the fifth in the index of names. I went through the entire History of Middle-earth and there are no references to Curufin being specifically named as the fifth son; that exists only in the published Silmarillion. I don't think it was a choice by Christopher per-se, but a mistaken inference based on the order that the Sons of Fëanor are listed, which varies quite a bit (I put details in a table on the Sons of Fëanor page). In this case, I'd say that the policy would be that we use the specific listing by JRRT over an inference by CT. Oberiko (talk) 17:57, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree. - IvarTheBoneless (talk) 18:20, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Escape to Nargothrond[edit source]

In Curufin and Celegorm's escape to Nargothrond, we have the following sources:

Silmarillion: Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

For the war had gone ill with the sons of Fëanor, and well nigh all the east marches were taken by assault. The Pass of Aglon was forced, though with great cost to the hosts of Morgoth; and Celegorm and Curufin being defeated fled south and west by the marches of Doriath, and coming at last to Nargothrond sought harbour with Finrod Felagund. Thus it came to pass that their people swelled the strength of Nargothrond; but it would have been better, as was after seen, if they had remained in the east among their own kin.

The War of the Jewels: The Grey Annals

§148 Against the March of Maidros there came also a great army and the sons of Fëanor were overwhelmed. Maidros and Maglor held out valiantly upon the Hill of Himring, and Morgoth could not yet take the great fortress that they had there built; but the Orcs broke through upon either side, through Aglon and between Gelion and Celon, and they ravaged far into East Beleriand driving the Eldar before them, and Cranthir and Damrod and Diriel fled into the south. Celegorn and Curufin held strong forces behind Aglon, and many horsed archers, but they were overthrown, and Celegorn and Curufin hardly escaped, and passed westward along the north borders of Doriath with such mounted following as they could save, and came thus at length to the vale of Sirion.
...
§153 [Original date here 456 struck out at the time of writing] Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of Finrod, and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed Fingolfin in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion; and Sauron his lieutenant (who in Beleriand was named  Gorsodh) led that assault, and his hosts broke through and besieged the fortress of Inglor, Minnas-tirith upon Tolsirion. And this they took after bitter fighting, and Orodreth the brother of Inglor who held it was driven out. There he would have been slain, but Celegorn and Curufin came up with their riders, and such other force as they could gather, and they fought fiercely, and stemmed the tide for a while; and thus Orodreth escaped and came to Nargothrond. Thither also at last before the might of Sauron fled Celegorn and Curufin with small following; and they were harboured in Nargothrond gratefully, and the griefs that lay between the houses of Finrod and Fëanor were for that time forgotten.

... Commentary
§153 In the earlier accounts (AB 2 in V. 132-3 with notes 25 and 29, and QS §141 and commentary) the story of how Celegorn and Curufin came to Nargothrond after their defeat in the east was shifting and obscure, but there was at any rate no suggestion that they played any part in the defence of Minnas-tirith on Tolsirion. My father made a note at this time on the AB 2 manuscript, suggesting a possible turn in the story: Celegorn and Curufin were driven west and helped manfully in the siege of Minnastirith, saving Orodreth's life: and so when Minnas-tirith was taken Orodreth could not help but harbour them in Nargothrond. He struck this out; but the story was now reintroduced and developed in the Grey Annals.  

The date of the capture of Minnas-tirith was changed in the Grey Annals. In AB 2 the date was 457 (following the fall of Fingolfin in 456); so also in QS §143 ‘For nearly two years the Gnomes still defended the west pass ... and Minnastirith withstood the Orcs', and it was ‘after the fall of Fingolfin’ that Sauron came against Tolsirion. In GA the present passage, describing the assault on the Pass of Sirion, was first dated 456, but the date was struck out, so that these events fall within the Fell Year, 455; and the fall of Fingolfin follows (still dated 456).

As GA doesn't contradict Silm, I reckon we're quite safe to use it. Oberiko (talk) 14:29, 18 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Celegorm's leadership in relation to Curufin[edit source]

Some notes until I have enough to add to the page:

  • Sauron interrogating the suspicious orcs: ‘Then heard ye not that he is gone, that Celegorm sits his throne upon?’[1]
  • Aredhel is welcomed by "the people of Celegorm"[2]
  • An embassy comes from Celegorm. Thingol learns that Beren is dead, and Lúthien at Nargothrond. He is roused to wrath by the hints of the letter that Celegorm will leave Felagund to die, and will usurp the throne of Nargothrond. And so Thingol had better let Lúthien stay where she is.[3]
  • The embassy of Celegorm tells Thingol that Beren and Felagund are dead, that Celegorm will make himself king of Narog, and while telling him that Lúthien is safe in Nargothrond and treating for her hand, hints that she will not return: it also warns him to trouble not the matter of the Silmarils.[4]
  • Christopher Tolkien further notes that the "subtleties in the relationship between Celegorm and Curufin are passed over in the prose version (The Silmarillion pp. 172–3), and there is no suggestion that Curufin was the more sinister of the pair, and the prime mover in their machinations."[5]
  • There came Orodreth after a time of breathless flight and perilous wanderings, and with him Celegorm and Curufin, the sons of Fëanor, his friends. The people of Celegorm swelled the strength of Felagund, but it would have been better if they had gone rather to their own kin, who fortified the hill of Himling east of Doriath and filled the Gorge of Aglon with hidden arms.[6]
  • In the midst of his fear came the embassy of Celegorm in secret, and said that Beren was dead, and Felagund, and Lúthien was at Nargothrond. Then Thingol found it in his heart to regret the death of Beren, and his wrath was aroused at the hinted treachery of Celegorm to the house of Finrod, and because he kept Lúthien and did not send her home.[7]
  • Therefore the march-wardens said to Aredhel: ‘To the land of Celegorm for which you seek, Lady, you may by no means pass through the realm of King Thingol; you must ride beyond the Girdle of Melian, to the south or to the north.[8]

Use of earlier Lay material[edit source]

I am wary of including any of the stuff from the original Lay of Leithian (as opposed to the later recommenced one) in any of the main sections of the article: I think all such material should go the OVOTL, given that it is from a quite early legendarium. - IvarTheBoneless (talk) 18:20, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Agreed, the recommenced would take priority in case of conflict, but there are items in the Lay that appear no where else (for example, the details of Finrod's Song of Power duel with Sauron) which I believe we are apt to use. Oberiko (talk) 21:03, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There is an unspoken and unwritten rule of thumb on TG (in my experience, at least) that the vast majority (excepting those parts that wound up in the published Silmarillion) of the pre-LOTR material (i.e. before c. 1950) should automatically go into the OVOTL, other than of course such concepts that never even left the pre-LOTR universe.
With that said, this is by no means an absolute rule - as long as you include a very, very big asterisk to any statement that you wish to include in the main text from the early materials: for an example, see my recently edited articles on Bór, Ulfang, and their sons, where I included their years of birth from The Lost Road and Other Writings, but moved forward 300 years into the future (i.e. F.A. 420 instead of 120, F.A. 447 instead of 147, etc.). And as you can see in all these articles, there are plenty of notes, NBs (Nota bene), and otherwise any other mechanisms by which I tried as hard as I could to make it crystal clear that such birth-years are only found in early texts, as well as the reason and method by which I arrived at the extrapolated later years of their birth (and death in the case of Ulfang) that I chose to include on TG.
Tl;dr - (and this goes for everyone) if you wish to include the early material in a main section of the article: be sure to clarify this fact as much as is humanly possible via notes and NBs! - IvarTheBoneless (talk) 21:52, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Makes sense, especially when needed to make adjustments or corrections to bring in line with later materials. Oberiko (talk) 15:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]