Tolkien Gateway


Removed the EoA-rip "evidently as common in [[Middle-earth]] as they are today.". I believe this phrasing too light-heartedly succumbs to the conception that Middle-earth is the same as the "real" world, which is merely one interpretation of the complex relationship between the two worlds. --Morgan 22:56, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreed.-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  00:16, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Spiders as EVIL?!?!

What? How can spiders be evil? They aren't evil. They're just animals trying to survive. If they were evil, they'd serve Sauron, but they're not. 01:36, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

They're not the spiders we know. They're Ungoliant's spawn. Ungoliant was more than just a spider, they are more than just spiders. (They're HUGE!)
Also, very fundamental flaw with your reasoning: not all evil serves Sauron. It can (and does) exist without him. --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 02:05, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Also, they are not just animals, they are sentient, and thus can be evil. Sage 13:06, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Then if they are evil, why do they devour anything they kill? If they were evil they wouldn't. If they did, they would just be animals. I understand Ungoliant being evil, in that she serves Morgoth, but the other spiders? What makes them evil? 22:43, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Canon makes them evil. No amount of reasoning trumps canon. --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 22:49, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Devouring everything they kill doesn't exclude evilness. Sage 09:29, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Also, Ungoliant very definitely doesn't serve Morgoth; they worked together because it suited their aims at the times (notwithstanding their different motives). Ungoliant is evil because she is. As are other spiders. That is their nature as part of the creation; perhaps when the world is remade they will be good (or not exist) but until that day occurs they are evil.
I know this isn't a very satisfying answer, but it is the answer. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 11:08, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
In Middle-earth there were also "ordinary" spiders like those Bilbo saw in the Mirkwood when he climbed the trees: "...and then he found spiders all right. But they were after the butterflies" (Ch. Flies and Spiders). I suppose the evil ones were all descendants of Ungoliant and inherited their evil nature and their evil self-consciousness (with their unnatural size) from her. All the other, normal-sized spiders were supposedly just animals. But the evil forces (viz. Morgoth and Ungoliant) who could not create anything, were able to corrupt animals in various degrees. The orcs (according to one theory) are an example of this. Birds (crebain) could be evil, too, but only because they were made evil by the evil forces, not by their own nature. Ordinary spiders just do not occur many times in the legendarium because we are mostly concerned with Ungoliant and her offspring, Shelob and other giant spiders in Mirkwood and Ered Gorgoroth. --Tik 09:15, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
If SHELOB was evil, why did she kill orcs too. Orcs are 'obviously' evil, so they would work together with Shelob, right? If she was evil, she would help the orcs out on the defense of the pass of Cirith Ungol. Considering she kills orcs too, this is another reason why her supposed "evilness" can be doubted. 17:50, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Even orcs killed each other. They were not any unified team, they hated more or less everybody, perhaps their master most of all, but feared him more than hated. Shelob is another question: she was a descendant of Ungoliant, an undeniably evil creature, who did not obey Melkor and tried to kill him. Neither did Shelob take orders from Sauron but had her own evil agenda. (Well, this was already said quite clearly above by Mith)--Tik 09:42, 29 March 2015 (UTC)